[Jason Thurman]

... where the standard of excellence hasn't risen dramatically?*


It's not Bobby Jones' fault that he's the George Mikan of golf in the age of Koepka and Kawhi. He stayed relevant for way longer.



* Shout to Mucci

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Probably not because science and advanced physical conditioning.  Maybe Fencing?

[Duncan Cheslett]

Probably not because science and advanced physical conditioning. 

Not to mention nutrition and abstinence from alcohol and cigarettes.

Our sporting heroes of 40 years ago were rarely seen without a drink in hand and a ciggy hanging from their lips!

[Kevin_Reilly]

I went to the 2011 and 2015 Rugby World Cups.  Even in that short time frame, the difference in physical stature of individual players who played in both Cups (for example, someone like All Black center Conrad Smith) was noticeable.  There were no Phil Bennetts on the field.


The offensive line on the 1981 Super Bowl champion 49ers weighed 252 (Dan Audick), 258 (John Ayers), 261 (Fred Quillan), 259 (Randy Cross), and 273 (Keith Fahnhorst).  That is a solid high school offensive line today.


Times have changed, and they aren't going back.

[Edward Glidewell]

If you consider horse racing a sport, that would be a good answer. Two of the three fastest Kentucky Derby times are from 1964 and 1973. That's not humans, though, so probably not what you were looking for.


I think tennis and golf are the only (human) sports where there are even grounds for an argument, because the equipment has changed so dramatically over the past 20-30 years.

[Jim Nugent]

In track and field, all the following world records were set in the 1990s or even 1980s...

1500 meters
mile
400 meter hurdles
4x400 meter relay
high jump
long jump
triple jump
discus
shot put
javelin

That's for men.  Even more women's records come from back then...

100 meters
200 meters
400 meters
800 meters
mile
high jump
long jump
triple jump
shot put
discus
heptathlon
hammer
4x400 meter relay

[Dan Herrmann]

Let me give you and example.  I used to officiate high school (American) football.   When I played in the late 1970, i was the heaviest on our team at 205 pounds. 


Fast forward to 1993, and I’m working the umpire position working games in Portland, Oregon.   I was a runt out there compared to the high school players.   


Proper nutrition, weight training, etc is changing every sport. 

[Tom_Doak]

Brooks made more money today (from endorsements, on a day off) than Bobby Jones made from golf in his lifetime.


If you think there is anything to capitalism, that’s a good indication of the incentives for being better in today’s world.

[Tom_Doak]

In track and field, all the following world records were set in the 1990s or even 1980s...

1500 meters
mile
400 meter hurdles
4x400 meter relay
high jump
long jump
triple jump
discus
shot put
javelin

That's for men.  Even more women's records come from back then...

100 meters
200 meters
400 meters
800 meters
mile
high jump
long jump
triple jump
shot put
discus
heptathlon
hammer
4x400 meter relay

Interesting.  To my point above, I wonder if it’s because there is no money in those sports?

[John Kavanaugh]

There is more money than ever in track. What there are not are heroes.


The break up of the Soviet Union also killed the Olympics.

[Mike Sweeney]

Interesting.  To my point above, I wonder if it’s because there is no money in those sports?

Yes, in part, but drug testing is also part of it. Ben Johnson got caught and obviously FloJo was complicated:


https://www.forbes.com/sites/briangoff/2016/08/11/the-ghost-of-flo-jo-hangs-over-womens-sprinting-in-the-olympics/#524bb5b6667f


In addition, #1 Usain Bolt rakes it in, but I probably can't name his #2, so your point is valid:


https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2016/08/12/how-usain-bolt-earns-33-million-a-year-a-whopping-10-times-more-than-any-other-track-star/#1ddf0206e4b6

[Ken Moum]

... where the standard of excellence hasn't risen dramatically?*

An excellent point, but anyone who ever looked at the pictures Edgerton shot of him with his revolutionary strobe lights, or watched the short films he made after he quit playing tournament golf must conclude that Bobby Jones would have been at the top of the game regardless of when he was born.

[Steve Lang]

Curling might qualify and it dates to the 16th century in Scotland!

[Jim Nugent]

Interesting.  To my point above, I wonder if it’s because there is no money in those sports?

Yes, in part, but drug testing is also part of it. Ben Johnson got caught and obviously FloJo was complicated:


https://www.forbes.com/sites/briangoff/2016/08/11/the-ghost-of-flo-jo-hangs-over-womens-sprinting-in-the-olympics/#524bb5b6667f

I've read that virtually all Olympic medalists in athletics (track & field) are on the juice.  Angel Herida -- an expert on concocting PEDS, who worked closely with Bolt and dozens of other Olympians -- had an interview with Der Spiegel.  Here are some exceprts...

 "SPIEGEL: Mr. Heredia, will you watch the 100 meter final in Beijing (i.e. the 2008 Olympics)?

Heredia: Of course. But the winner will not be clean. Not even any of the contestants will be clean. (emphasis added)

SPIEGEL: Of eight runners …

Heredia: … eight will be doped.

SPIEGEL: There is no way to prove that.

Heredia: There is no doubt about it. The difference between 10.0 and 9.7 seconds is the drugs.

SPIEGEL: Can drugs make anyone into a world record holder?

Heredia: No, that is a misapprehension: “You take a couple of tablets today and tomorrow you can really fly.” In reality you have to train inconceivably hard, be very talented and have a perfect team of trainers and support staff. And then it is the best drugs that make the difference. It is all a great composition, a symphony. Everything is linked together, do you understand? And drugs have a long-term effect: they ensure that you can recover, that you avoid the catabolic phases. Volleyball on the beach might be healthy, but peak athletics is not healthy. You destroy your body. Marion Jones, for example ...

SPIEGEL: ... five-time Olympic medallist at Sydney 2000 ...

Heredia: ... trained with an unparalleled intensity. Drugs protect you from injury. And she triumphed and picked up all the medals.

SPIEGEL: Are you proud?

Heredia: Of course, I still am. It is still a tremendous achievement, and you must not believe that Marion’s rivals were poor, deceived competitors.

SPIEGEL: This isn’t just an American problem?

Heredia: Are you kidding me? No. All countries, all federations, all top athletes are affected, and among those responsible are the big shoe companies like Nike and Adidas. I know athletes who broke records; a year later they were injured and they got the call: “We’re cutting your sponsorship money by 50 percent.” What do you think such athletes then do?

[Jon Wiggett]

Brooks made more money today (from endorsements, on a day off) than Bobby Jones made from golf in his lifetime.


If you think there is anything to capitalism, that’s a good indication of the incentives for being better in today’s world.

Tom,


you could possibly say the same of today's leading amateur player.

[Mike Sweeney]

I've read that virtually all Olympic medalists in athletics (track & field) are on the juice.  Angel Herida -- an expert on concocting PEDS, who worked closely with Bolt and dozens of other Olympians -- had an interview with Der Spiegel.  Here are some exceprts...


Heredia: Are you kidding me? No. All countries, all federations, all top athletes are affected, and among those responsible are the big shoe companies like Nike and Adidas. I know athletes who broke records; a year later they were injured and they got the call: “We’re cutting your sponsorship money by 50 percent.” What do you think such athletes then do?

Jim,


Thanks for posting that.


Complicated subject for a golf discussion group, but it does make me wonder about our current golfers. They all seem to peak and then die off - Rory, Jordan... let's see where Brooks is in a year.


Then there is Tiger who crossed the sport over to the "new world" of power golf, crashed and burned, and just picked up the pieces to gut out a win at Augusta. More amazing now after seeing him as an "aging golfer" again at Bethpage.


Over on the "Bethpage is Great" threads, the question becomes - "Are we modernizing historic golf courses to defend against modern golfers or modern medicine (and technology)".


Off to Ireland to face that time tested defense of low scores in golf - wind...

[archie_struthers]

 

need I say it


BABE RUTH


still nothing to compare with his statistics

[Pete Lavallee]

Thankfully the Babe was only juiced on beer and hotdogs!

[John Emerson]

Interesting.  To my point above, I wonder if it’s because there is no money in those sports?

Yes, in part, but drug testing is also part of it. Ben Johnson got caught and obviously FloJo was complicated:


https://www.forbes.com/sites/briangoff/2016/08/11/the-ghost-of-flo-jo-hangs-over-womens-sprinting-in-the-olympics/#524bb5b6667f

I've read that virtually all Olympic medalists in athletics (track & field) are on the juice.  Angel Herida -- an expert on concocting PEDS, who worked closely with Bolt and dozens of other Olympians -- had an interview with Der Spiegel.  Here are some exceprts...

 "SPIEGEL: Mr. Heredia, will you watch the 100 meter final in Beijing (i.e. the 2008 Olympics)?

Heredia: Of course. But the winner will not be clean. Not even any of the contestants will be clean. (emphasis added)

SPIEGEL: Of eight runners …

Heredia: … eight will be doped.

SPIEGEL: There is no way to prove that.

Heredia: There is no doubt about it. The difference between 10.0 and 9.7 seconds is the drugs.

SPIEGEL: Can drugs make anyone into a world record holder?

Heredia: No, that is a misapprehension: “You take a couple of tablets today and tomorrow you can really fly.” In reality you have to train inconceivably hard, be very talented and have a perfect team of trainers and support staff. And then it is the best drugs that make the difference. It is all a great composition, a symphony. Everything is linked together, do you understand? And drugs have a long-term effect: they ensure that you can recover, that you avoid the catabolic phases. Volleyball on the beach might be healthy, but peak athletics is not healthy. You destroy your body. Marion Jones, for example ...

SPIEGEL: ... five-time Olympic medallist at Sydney 2000 ...

Heredia: ... trained with an unparalleled intensity. Drugs protect you from injury. And she triumphed and picked up all the medals.

SPIEGEL: Are you proud?

Heredia: Of course, I still am. It is still a tremendous achievement, and you must not believe that Marion’s rivals were poor, deceived competitors.

SPIEGEL: This isn’t just an American problem?

Heredia: Are you kidding me? No. All countries, all federations, all top athletes are affected, and among those responsible are the big shoe companies like Nike and Adidas. I know athletes who broke records; a year later they were injured and they got the call: “We’re cutting your sponsorship money by 50 percent.” What do you think such athletes then do?

If there is money to be made in an athletic endeavor, then someone is juicing and I’d bet my life on that.

[Jason Thurman]

... where the standard of excellence hasn't risen dramatically?*

An excellent point, but anyone who ever looked at the pictures Edgerton shot of him with his revolutionary strobe lights, or watched the short films he made after he quit playing tournament golf must conclude that Bobby Jones would have been at the top of the game regardless of when he was born.

He was extraordinary. But he wouldn’t be winning majors as a law practicing amateur in today’s era.


The track records are interesting. Track has always demanded training that is still pretty new to golf. Brooks Koepka would whip Gary Player’s ass at the shot put.

[Sean_A]

Track has seen incredible advances in track and shoe technology which enable faster times. The hurdles used today are far safer then back in the day. There are loads of little things today which cut down on the risk of injury and enable performance. Not to mention what is possible via surgery and medicine. Athletes should be performing significantly better today without being fitter. Add in modern fitness and pinpoint training and Bob's yer uncle.

BTW, how many majors would Tiger have using the medicine of B Jones' era? Would Hogan have won more in this era with today's medicine and modern surgery capability? Would today's player have to restrict training and therefore the explosive swing techniques if there wasn't modern medicine and surgery techniques? Don't kid yourself, those old boys in black and white times were awesome players.

Ciao

[Jim Nugent]

Track has seen incredible advances in track shoe technology which enable faster times. The hurdles used today are far safer then back in the day. There are loads of little things today which cut down on the risk of injury and enable performance. Not to mention what is possible via surgery and medicine. Athletes should be performing significantly better today without being fitter. Add in modern fitness and pinpoint training and Bob's yer uncle.

Sean, all good points, and I think you can add the track itself to your list.  One important thing offsets a fair amount of that, though, at least on sprints: fully automatic timers.  Pretty sure they've been shown around 0.24 seconds slower in the 100 meters than hand timing. 

[Thomas Dai]

Although there’ve been many top batsman in cricket in the period since him, there’s been no batsman with Don Bradmans consistently high scoring since he retired 70 odd yrs ago. Nor another Gary Sobers like all-rounder either.
Atb

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Although there’ve been many top batsman in cricket in the period since him, there’s been no batsman with Don Bradmans consistently high scoring since he retired 70 odd yrs ago. Nor another Gary Sobers like all-rounder either.

It's tough to weight sports where an opponent has a direct effect on your performance. Pitchers and fielders in cricket can affect how well a batter (not sure of the terminology) performs (and vice versa).

[Jason Topp]

In track and field, all the following world records were set in the 1990s or even 1980s...

1500 meters
mile
400 meter hurdles
4x400 meter relay
high jump
long jump
triple jump
discus
shot put
javelin

That's for men.  Even more women's records come from back then...

100 meters
200 meters
400 meters
800 meters
mile
high jump
long jump
triple jump
shot put
discus
heptathlon
hammer
4x400 meter relay

Interesting.  To my point above, I wonder if it’s because there is no money in those sports?

I saw a video recently that attributed all of the improvements in time to the change from cinder to modern surfaces for track.

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