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Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
My apology to Nick
« on: May 24, 2019, 01:23:35 AM »
I need to publicly apologize to Nick.


After years of reading virtually reading every post on GCA.COM, I have not been very active of late for personal reasons. A few weeks ago I randomly logged on and read through five pages of the "Bethpage is not a great course" thread. I instinctively reacted to Nick's personal attacks on Mark and others. I should have recognized a newbie to our website and been more patient. Sadly, my "stand up to the bully" instincts kicked in and I felt compelled to respond in kind, armed with everything that I have learned since I started hanging out on GCA.COM many years ago.


After much reflection, I don't want to fight with Nick anymore. I've raised kids that are almost his age. It was wrong for me to be so harsh. Nick is not the reason that our golf courses have been so screwed up over the past 40 years, the poor guy was a baby when this all started! He did not put The Masters on TV and cause thousands of clubs to plant trees to separate every hole, build Tiger tees where space permitted,  and strive for absolutely perfect conditions, costs be damned. I know enough to blame the Pro V1 and the 460cc driver, not some young guy who likes Bethpage because it is hard, even for pro golfers. Nick thinks like I used to think. I used to say stupid stuff like: "Hard is better" and "What does the course measure from the tips," and "Could this track host a PGA tournament,"  and "The Black is great, it kicked my ass, but I loved it!"


It took me many years to progress to the point where I started to understand what makes for truly great golf course architecture. I spent untold hours reading the Courses by Country section and all of the reviews. I read about 10,000 of Tom Doak's posts, his Anatomy book, and listened to him in person on several occasions. I learned how C & C rocked the world of gca with Sand Hills and made Nicklaus, Fazion, Rees Jones, Greg Norman and others react. I walked three golf courses with George Bahto before he died.  I played golf with Ran Morrissett at Bandon and watched him analyze a golf course, pick up his ball when a photograph was more important than finishing a hole... I read just about every post that Pat Mucci, Tom Paul, Wayne Morrison, Gib Papazion and fifty other great posters that I am forgetting in GCA.COM's early days when every course was a fresh new topic.


I really owed Nick the opportunity to progress from his current understanding of what is great. It is unfortunate that he does not like to fly. (I mean this in all sincerity. I have a ridiculous fear of heights; I respect all phobias.) He needs to go to Scotland and Ireland and experience true links golf. He needs to grasp the beauty, pleasure and frustration of being required to land the ball short of a green and hoping you can use the putter on the next shot. He needs to understand what really windy conditions are like, not the 10 mph that we call 25 mph...


I should know that this is a long, slow process for us Americans... I complained liked a spoiled brat the first time I went to Ireland when I was in my twenties. I hated the rock had turf that made my 60 degree wedge a useless instrument. The "fairways" were gross! Ugly, light brown,  hard-packed  excuses for fairways that would cause my country club members in the US to fire the Superintendent and run an opposition slate in the next Board elections (which has never happened in our history...)


I should have been as patient with Nick as I would have been with my own kids. He doesn't know what he does not know. I truly hope he can overcome his fear of flying. I truly hope he gets the chance to play golf in the UK and Ireland; perhaps Australia, New Zealand and the Netherlands, like I have. He needs to play TOC and have his caddy say on hole #2 "hit the nine" when "clearly" a 7 iron is the shot... Perhaps he'll hit a perfect 8 like I did and watch his caddy smirk when the ball flies into the swale and stops there. Perhaps he'll do that again later in the round, like I did, and then say to the caddy, "ok I'll hit whatever you tell me and let the ball roll through the swale." I know that would change his perspective on what is truly great about the game we play, as it did mine. Perhaps someday he will come to relish the randomness of a fortunate bounce, as well as  the unfortunate bounce, and not complain when his "perfect shot" is not rewarded.


"You are young, that's your fault, there's so much you have to know. I was once  like you are now and I know that its not easy..." Cat Stevens.


We should not give up on Nick, we should let his effusive praise of Bethpage go unchallenged, because if he hangs out here long enough and plays enough courses, the light bulb will go off.


"Some day we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny."


Cheers!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 02:41:01 AM by Bill Brightly »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2019, 01:28:50 AM »
.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 01:35:08 AM by Bill Brightly »

Peter Pallotta

Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2019, 03:04:09 AM »
Lovely.
May we all be so gracious.
When it comes to gca (at the very least), Jimmy Stewart's line from Harvey rings true: we can be 'smart' or we can be kind -- kind is better.
Best to you, Bill
P


JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2019, 06:19:48 AM »
Nice comments. I hope whatever it was which kept you from posting on GCA has improved and you visit more frequently--your opinions are always worth reading.


And extra credit for working both Cat Stevens and The Boss onto a single post.

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2019, 07:07:38 AM »
Wonderful post, Bill. It reminds me of these famous words of patience from the Dalai Llama:


“It’s not so much that he was insulting and mean-spirited, though he was. It’s not so much that he showed no respect, though he did not. It’s not so much that he misrepresented everyone else’s argument to conveniently suit his own, though that often occurred. It’s more that he would not allow any critical discussion of Bethpage Black to be had without attacking those who did not fully defend the course. Like, bro, we get it. You’ve made your case. It’s okay to let a few people speak hypothetically about what they think would make the Black better. Not exactly super-controversial stuff. You don’t need to burn down the discourse of the DG. Gunga galunga.”
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2019, 07:52:19 AM »
Appreciate you are making an effort, but this is the most snarky disengenuous backbiting apology ever. 


It basically says “I forgive him”

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2019, 09:26:04 AM »
James, I had the same reaction. 

Bill Charles

Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2019, 10:08:13 AM »
Bill I admire your kindness and willingness to help this sad soul but after multiple threads and dozens of pages it’s obvious he has a tour course disease and long drive stuck on the brain. He can’t be saved. We need to put that lamb to slaughter and get rid of him.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2019, 10:33:59 AM »
Bill I admire your kindness and willingness to help this sad soul but after multiple threads and dozens of pages it’s obvious he has a tour course disease and long drive stuck on the brain. He can’t be saved. We need to put that lamb to slaughter and get rid of him.


Wait, get rid of him? I think he’s expressed some ridiculous views (particularly those regarding Trump and his stable of courses), but to suggest we get rid of him is equally ridiculous. Are we that afraid of opposing viewpoints and reasonable debate? If you can’t handle someone with a different viewpoint, then maybe you should go instead.

Nick Ribeiro

Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2019, 10:41:55 AM »
Bill I admire your kindness and willingness to help this sad soul but after multiple threads and dozens of pages it’s obvious he has a tour course disease and long drive stuck on the brain. He can’t be saved. We need to put that lamb to slaughter and get rid of him.


Wait, get rid of him? I think he’s expressed some ridiculous views (particularly those regarding Trump and his stable of courses), but to suggest we get rid of him is equally ridiculous. Are we that afraid of opposing viewpoints and reasonable debate? If you can’t handle someone with a different viewpoint, then maybe you should go instead.


BHoover, we can agree!
I think some here get very intimidated when a great championship course such as Bethpage is showcased on the major stage. They worry members at their home club will want the same thing and take away their fairways, make their bunkers too challenging, and lengthen the courses where better players themselves will be able to play from but not them. Then comes debate and they want to ignore traditions such as Bethpage being hard, so they experience full blown melt downs like Bill 1 did when starting this thread. Then in comes Bill 2 with suggestions of, lets just get rid of those we do not agree with. Sorry Bill, this is a discussion group not a cult.

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2019, 11:00:07 AM »
Bill I admire your kindness and willingness to help this sad soul but after multiple threads and dozens of pages it’s obvious he has a tour course disease and long drive stuck on the brain. He can’t be saved. We need to put that lamb to slaughter and get rid of him.


Wait, get rid of him? I think he’s expressed some ridiculous views (particularly those regarding Trump and his stable of courses), but to suggest we get rid of him is equally ridiculous. Are we that afraid of opposing viewpoints and reasonable debate? If you can’t handle someone with a different viewpoint, then maybe you should go instead.


Are you seriously suggesting that Nick has engaged in reasonable debate? All due respect, that's completely laughable. Not only has he used nearly every trick in the "intellectually dishonest debate" handbook, but he immediately started out with personal attacks and immature internet bullying and kept it up for pages and pages, after repeated pleas to just tone down the hostile bullshit. Some people have responded in kind, and that's unfortunate. The high road always has a better view. But please don't normalize his behavior. It defeats the entire purpose of trying to create a place for reasoned, respectful debate of a topic we all purport to love. His opinion on Bethpage is perfectly fine, even if I obviously don't agree, but the poison he's injected into the discussion is unforgivable.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2019, 11:26:07 AM »
Bill I admire your kindness and willingness to help this sad soul but after multiple threads and dozens of pages it’s obvious he has a tour course disease and long drive stuck on the brain. He can’t be saved. We need to put that lamb to slaughter and get rid of him.


Wait, get rid of him? I think he’s expressed some ridiculous views (particularly those regarding Trump and his stable of courses), but to suggest we get rid of him is equally ridiculous. Are we that afraid of opposing viewpoints and reasonable debate? If you can’t handle someone with a different viewpoint, then maybe you should go instead.


Although I happen to disagree with Nick on the BPB discussion, I agree that it is important to have opposing views. You can often learn more than you would within a group-think mentality.


I will start a separate thread off the back of Nick's comments on whether penal courses should have options, and if they do, is it then considered a penal design. Wouldn't have considered that without the thread.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2019, 12:15:00 PM »
Bill I admire your kindness and willingness to help this sad soul but after multiple threads and dozens of pages it’s obvious he has a tour course disease and long drive stuck on the brain. He can’t be saved. We need to put that lamb to slaughter and get rid of him.


Wait, get rid of him? I think he’s expressed some ridiculous views (particularly those regarding Trump and his stable of courses), but to suggest we get rid of him is equally ridiculous. Are we that afraid of opposing viewpoints and reasonable debate? If you can’t handle someone with a different viewpoint, then maybe you should go instead.


Are you seriously suggesting that Nick has engaged in reasonable debate? All due respect, that's completely laughable. Not only has he used nearly every trick in the "intellectually dishonest debate" handbook, but he immediately started out with personal attacks and immature internet bullying and kept it up for pages and pages, after repeated pleas to just tone down the hostile bullshit. Some people have responded in kind, and that's unfortunate. The high road always has a better view. But please don't normalize his behavior. It defeats the entire purpose of trying to create a place for reasoned, respectful debate of a topic we all purport to love. His opinion on Bethpage is perfectly fine, even if I obviously don't agree, but the poison he's injected into the discussion is unforgivable.


I’m suggesting that we should hold off on getting rid of people. I don’t agree with anything Nick has said, or his manner of expressing himself. I’m saying we should avoid stifling debate, and getting rid of someone tends to have that affect.


I think this site is worse for having removed many former posters.

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2019, 12:16:49 PM »
Thank you Mark!
Opposing views are different than absurd ones.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2019, 02:36:52 PM »
I think some here get very intimidated when a great championship course such as Bethpage is showcased on the major stage.
I'm on board with this topic being at least in poor taste, and possibly worse, but Nick, c'mon… intimidated? By WHAT? A golf course on TV that OTHER people are playing? How on earth does a course being shown on TV "intimidate" people here?


They worry members at their home club will want the same thing and take away their fairways, make their bunkers too challenging, and lengthen the courses where better players themselves will be able to play from but not them.
Poppycock. I imagine roughly zero people here are worried that the members of their courses will want something more like BPB for their course.


Are you seriously suggesting that Nick has engaged in reasonable debate? All due respect, that's completely laughable. Not only has he used nearly every trick in the "intellectually dishonest debate" handbook, but he immediately started out with personal attacks and immature internet bullying and kept it up for pages and pages, after repeated pleas to just tone down the hostile bullshit. Some people have responded in kind, and that's unfortunate. The high road always has a better view. But please don't normalize his behavior. It defeats the entire purpose of trying to create a place for reasoned, respectful debate of a topic we all purport to love. His opinion on Bethpage is perfectly fine, even if I obviously don't agree, but the poison he's injected into the discussion is unforgivable.
QFT.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Bill Charles

Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2019, 02:54:28 PM »
I think some here get very intimidated when a great championship course such as Bethpage is showcased on the major stage.
I'm on board with this topic being at least in poor taste, and possibly worse, but Nick, c'mon… intimidated? By WHAT? A golf course on TV that OTHER people are playing? How on earth does a course being shown on TV "intimidate" people here?


They worry members at their home club will want the same thing and take away their fairways, make their bunkers too challenging, and lengthen the courses where better players themselves will be able to play from but not them.
Poppycock. I imagine roughly zero people here are worried that the members of their courses will want something more like BPB for their course.


Are you seriously suggesting that Nick has engaged in reasonable debate? All due respect, that's completely laughable. Not only has he used nearly every trick in the "intellectually dishonest debate" handbook, but he immediately started out with personal attacks and immature internet bullying and kept it up for pages and pages, after repeated pleas to just tone down the hostile bullshit. Some people have responded in kind, and that's unfortunate. The high road always has a better view. But please don't normalize his behavior. It defeats the entire purpose of trying to create a place for reasoned, respectful debate of a topic we all purport to love. His opinion on Bethpage is perfectly fine, even if I obviously don't agree, but the poison he's injected into the discussion is unforgivable.
QFT.


This topic is not in poor taste. Bill made a very nice gesture in apologizing and even offering guidance. Poor taste is Nick coming to this thread to comment but not accepting Bills apology. Nick is incapable of seeing the light, the lamb needs to go to slaughter.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2019, 03:33:40 PM »
This topic is not in poor taste. Bill made a very nice gesture in apologizing and even offering guidance. Poor taste is Nick coming to this thread to comment but not accepting Bills apology. Nick is incapable of seeing the light, the lamb needs to go to slaughter.
The OP was not an apology. I like Bill B., but he knows that wasn't a real apology.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Bill Charles

Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2019, 04:06:17 PM »
This topic is not in poor taste. Bill made a very nice gesture in apologizing and even offering guidance. Poor taste is Nick coming to this thread to comment but not accepting Bills apology. Nick is incapable of seeing the light, the lamb needs to go to slaughter.
The OP was not an apology. I like Bill B., but he knows that wasn't a real apology.


But does he even deserve an apology? Nope!

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2019, 04:14:57 PM »
Erik,


Just quite how do you know that Bill's apology was not sincere? What insight do you have to make this judgement? Bill's apology was, to some degree, fulsome but I believe that came from B.B. being a wee bit saddened, and maybe disappointed in himself, by his initial salvo. But then I have no insight either.


Regarding Nick R's (does that read arse!!) contribution. It has been the most vitriolic and bullying stuff I have read on here in the last decade.


Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2019, 04:21:59 PM »
Just quite how do you know that Bill's apology was not sincere? What insight do you have to make this judgement? Bill's apology was, to some degree, fulsome but I believe that came from B.B. being a wee bit saddened, and maybe disappointed in himself, by his initial salvo. But then I have no insight either.

Regarding Nick R's (does that read arse!!) contribution. It has been the most vitriolic and bullying stuff I have read on here in the last decade.
I know how to read, that's how.  :)


Nick has demonstrated some lousy behavior, but my suggestion is to ignore that, and try to at least attempt to discuss the few nuggets he does share. Or, if you don't wish to do that, just don't engage at all.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2019, 04:33:05 PM »
Appreciate you are making an effort, but this is the most snarky disengenuous backbiting apology ever. 


It basically says “I forgive him”


James-It was Bill’s golf course architecture resume or code for look at all the stuff I have done and so Nick how could you possibly be on the same level to discuss the issue with the likes of me? Boiled down it was patronizing, high handed and devoid of any self awareness. I actually had to reread it to believe it.

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2019, 04:39:14 PM »
Holy smoke ! You boys are cynics!


I am obviously a wee bairn lost in the wilderness when it comes to the milk of human kindness!


Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Nick Ribeiro

Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2019, 04:51:23 PM »
Appreciate you are making an effort, but this is the most snarky disengenuous backbiting apology ever. 


It basically says “I forgive him”


James-It was Bill’s golf course architecture resume or code for look at all the stuff I have done and so Nick how could you possibly be on the same level to discuss the issue with the likes of me? Boiled down it was patronizing, high handed and devoid of any self awareness. I actually had to reread it to believe it.


It's amazing... all because I came to the defense of Americas Country Club....

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2019, 06:37:04 PM »
I stayed out of the prior thread and probably should stay out of this one.  Notwithstanding the disclaimer, I suggest that Bill's apology was less an apology than his observations regarding Nick's expertise and experience regarding GCA.  As such, they are his own.  Given my oft stated disdain for ad hominem attacks, even when they are thinly veiled, I would have preferred that Bill had restrained himself.  Nick, nobody was troubled by your defense of the Black.  What many found objectionable was the manner in which you presented your "arguments".  Over the years, we have had many detailed and sometimes heated exchanges between members, oftentimes between friends.  The only time people object is when the tone of the discourse becomes disrespectful.  On rare occasions, moderators have had to intervene.  I don't know you but I suggest you review your posts and consider whether the manner in which you made your arguments reflect that spirit.  You might also consider whether your presentation is likely to sway the opinions of those considering the issues raised in the thread.  Finally, please note that I have not taken a position on the original topic.  I am probably closer to your position on the Black than many who responded.  I found your remarks about our President to be more than extreme and largely off topic, particularly given the fact that the economic data which you disparaged came from reports filed by the Trump Organization.

Nick Ribeiro

Re: My apology to Nick
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2019, 07:51:15 PM »
I stayed out of the prior thread and probably should stay out of this one.  Notwithstanding the disclaimer, I suggest that Bill's apology was less an apology than his observations regarding Nick's expertise and experience regarding GCA.  As such, they are his own.  Given my oft stated disdain for ad hominem attacks, even when they are thinly veiled, I would have preferred that Bill had restrained himself.  Nick, nobody was troubled by your defense of the Black.  What many found objectionable was the manner in which you presented your "arguments".  Over the years, we have had many detailed and sometimes heated exchanges between members, oftentimes between friends.  The only time people object is when the tone of the discourse becomes disrespectful.  On rare occasions, moderators have had to intervene.  I don't know you but I suggest you review your posts and consider whether the manner in which you made your arguments reflect that spirit.  You might also consider whether your presentation is likely to sway the opinions of those considering the issues raised in the thread.  Finally, please note that I have not taken a position on the original topic.  I am probably closer to your position on the Black than many who responded.  I found your remarks about our President to be more than extreme and largely off topic, particularly given the fact that the economic data which you disparaged came from reports filed by the Trump Organization.


You prob should have stayed out since you don't seem very confident in taking a position but your political views got the best of you, which is fine. Bethpage was called terrible, boring, bastardized, Rees-torn apart, and then some went as far as to day dream of a redesign on here for themselves. I stand by my statement of Bethpage Black being a great course.


Being a fan of all golf I also did defend the Trump properties. The economic data I disparaged came from reports filed by the Trump Org ACCORDING to the ever so honorable Washington Post... Give me a break. I didn't start either thread by the way, and didnt start this one.


Find the courage to just stand up and say what you believe, anyone who reads this already knows where you stand.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 07:55:09 PM by Nick Ribeiro »

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