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Niall C

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2019, 07:48:31 AM »

I do have some objection to the criteria of being able to carry your own bag.  I prefer to carry, but if a club requires caddies to maintain a good caddie program, that seems consistent with being a Custodian.  Just think Francis Ouimet and the Evans Scholars program.


Ira

...and just think of those who can't afford to use caddies even on a one off basis never mind all the time. It seems to me you are excluding a fair chunk of society by doing that. Just saying.

Niall

Ira Fishman

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2019, 08:20:33 AM »
Niall,


I agree that caddies are a luxury.  We use them rarely on some trips as part of treating ourselves on vacation and are aware that they are an indulgence.  But my point is that for a course that does have a caddie program, I do not think that by itself it should disqualify the course from being a Custodian.  The course is providing gainful employment, and might hit it out of the park on the other criteria.  I believe CPC is probably excluded because of the carry one's own bag criteria.  As I said, though, Ran's house, his rules.  And it is such a good list that I could come up with only Golspie among the courses I have played as a possible addition.


Ira

corey miller

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2019, 02:01:37 PM »



A course can support some sort of caddie program while not precluding the ability of members to carry their own bag.  Is the "value proposition" in having a caddie so weak that members must be forced to have a caddie?

Ira Fishman

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2019, 03:12:10 PM »
Corey,


I am not saying that a club should have a mandatory caddie policy.  I just think that relative to the other criteria for the Custodians list, it is should not lead to automatic disqualification.  I doubt Ran will agree with me so I am happy to follow his criteria in evaluating candidates for the list.


Ira

Thomas Dai

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2019, 04:12:41 PM »
Caddy and caddy programmes in the US are often mentioned herein.
What percentage of courses in the US, whether private or public or pay-n-play or muni or whatever have a caddy programme or caddies available?
Just curious.
Arb

V. Kmetz

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2019, 04:24:11 PM »

A course can support some sort of caddie program while not precluding the ability of members to carry their own bag.  Is the "value proposition" in having a caddie so weak that members must be forced to have a caddie?

No Corey, the level of "mandator-i-ness" of any club's caddie policies develop out of the habits/demographics of the club and its players...if only a handful like to walk, and don't mind carrying their own, then mandatory policies are likely not to be found...but once you start approaching 1/3rd or half of a membership (or more) that like to walk, then you're going to also increase the number of that club that don't like to carry their own...now you NEED some caddies, but are caddies going to show at a place with irregular caddie usage? The answer to that question is no, whether we're talking about the youngster or grizzled vet.

A tangential factor to the above is that in these parts, there are plenty of club members who prefer/are compelled to ride (will walk on occasion) who like what the caddie provides even when not walking...the raking, the yardages, the divots, the advice, the reads, a towel at hand, sight of an errant shot, consoling misses, celebrating good plays... human service and human interaction. So that's nearly-whole other group of players in any club, who endorse caddies being mandatory, so that they are available to them when they deign to play...

A third bit of context you might miss is that only for a concentration of Top 100 mandatory caddie clubs is the caddie mandatory 24/7...  many places curtail the rule as the afternoon goes on, whereby couples, fathers-son, family groups and juniors and singles can get by without taking one after 4 or 5 pm...

The final statement I have to that is that 85% of the people I have been working for are LOADED; many are kind; almost all of them have cash in their pocket equal to your last good month, very few of them even know or care what they are paying me. If they give me extra and I see em the next day and say "Thanks for yesterday, I appreciate it," they don';t even know what I'm talking about.

Whether it's talking about THIS nuance or Ran's idea of a place that stewards the game the way he likes it stewarded, the big divide about all of this for all of us is whether the club is private or public... at a private club, no one ought have a beef...either you're a member who came in eyes-open, or you're visiting...visitors don't re-arrange your cabinets. At a public you have the choice not to play.
Caddy and caddy programmes in the US are often mentioned herein.
What percentage of courses in the US, whether private or public or pay-n-play or muni or whatever have a caddy programme or caddies available?
Just curious.
Arb


and that's another nuanced point...NOT MANY as per total course-choices....BUT almost ALL of an objectively fused Top 200 list...and the best privates in big city suburbs.


It gets a lot of play here because we mostly reference the courses just mentioned.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Peter Pallotta

Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2019, 05:06:04 PM »
One could reasonably add many a course from Sean's quality-for-value lists, many of them Doak 5s and 6s (my favourite kind of Doaks), or indeed have the 'best' of these replace some of the more renowned but bloated (for lack of a better word) courses on the original 147
Temple
Burnham & Berrow
Formby
Seaton Carew
Beau Desert
Cleeve Cloud
Southerndown
Yelverton
Delamere Forest


Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2019, 06:15:49 PM »
148 absolutely needs to be Ganton.

Steve Kline

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2019, 06:40:37 AM »



A course can support some sort of caddie program while not precluding the ability of members to carry their own bag.  Is the "value proposition" in having a caddie so weak that members must be forced to have a caddie?


My club has mandatory caddies on the weekend until they are gone, which is usually by 11 a.m. I joined knowing that. It was a concession I made in exchange for proximity of the course to work and home and the quality of the course (i also concedes on it being a country club and not a golf club). If I had total control, the caddy policy would be the first thing I would change. I want to walk and carry when I want (another of other members to do). Generally, people don’t like being forced to do something no matter what it is.


When the caddies are kids, I would say the value prop is very weak. Other people may be, but I’m not interested in spending my weekend mornings teaching a random kid how to caddy.


When it’s your home course that you play over and over, the value prop for a caddy is very weak. I don’t need help with the course. At that point, the caddy is a bag carrier only. I don’t need help with that either. I need the exercise.


I enjoy a really good caddy. It can make for a fun round. But I generally don’t enjoy it to the point of the extra expense it requires, especially when the courses that generally have them are already pretty expensive.

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2019, 09:03:56 AM »
What about Dooks for the 148th? Haven't seen too many courses that were more fun than that one. The only one that springs to mind is already on the list.


William_G

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2019, 09:39:20 AM »
This Top 147 list reminds me that there are some glaring omissions from the course profiles on this site, including courses on teh 147 list.


Perhaps the most glaring is Cabot Cliffs. I know Ran has been there - I wonder why there is no course profile of Cabot Cliffs on GCA?


Royal Dornoch?


http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/new-seventh-hole-begins-to-take-shape-at-royal-dornoch



It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2019, 09:41:14 AM »
What about Dooks for the 148th? Haven't seen too many courses that were more fun than that one. The only one that springs to mind is already on the list.


Bandon Dunes?


Sheep Ranch 2.0 will be
It's all about the golf!

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2019, 08:23:09 PM »





Actually V Kmetz,  at many clubs members are browbeat into taking a caddie and in the NYC metro area the value proposition is a joke. 


As someone who values the game I really don't need a pal on the course and I especially don't need someone to replace my divots, or rake my bunkers or even watch balls.  Almost every darn thing you even mention slows the game down.  It is a scam, that said I dutifully take a guy out every time it is required, and treat them with the utmost respect. 


Sean_A

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2019, 04:02:27 AM »
I understand V's basic premis of the choice to use caddies or not was determined when someone joins a club. However, there can be no doubt that caddies add a layer of complication which can inhibit playing golf the way he wishes to do so. Ran seeks out the simple joys of golf. I don't see why that is an issue for folks.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 04:48:18 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2019, 08:59:34 AM »
No Corey, the level of "mandator-i-ness" of any club's caddie policies develop out of the habits/demographics of the club and its players...if only a handful like to walk, and don't mind carrying their own, then mandatory policies are likely not to be found...but once you start approaching 1/3rd or half of a membership (or more) that like to walk, then you're going to also increase the number of that club that don't like to carry their own...now you NEED some caddies, but are caddies going to show at a place with irregular caddie usage? The answer to that question is no, whether we're talking about the youngster or grizzled vet.
I disagree.  Here in Canada there are lots of clubs where many people walk but very, very few of them have caddies.  Push carts and battery powered non-riding carts are quite popular options for those that like to walk and don't want to carry.


I have played a fair bit of golf in Canada, the US and the UK and why is it that mandatory caddies are only a "thing" in the US?  Here in Canada caddies are extremely rare - Hamilton G&CC is the only club that I am aware of with a traditional caddy program.  At a few other courses, like The National or Magna you can request a caddy as they have a few available.  In terms of public or resort courses other than Cabot Links caddies are pretty much extinct.  And Cabot doesn't require a caddy, you can walk and carry or use a push cart.


From where I have played in the UK it seems that only the courses frequented by tourists have caddies available on a regular basis and other then TOC caddies are rarely, if ever, a requirement.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 10:55:20 AM by Wayne_Kozun »

corey miller

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2019, 10:25:28 AM »



Yes we all make choices when we join clubs, like I said, I abide by the rules. 


However, to what extent could/should  the "you knew the rules when you joined" apply to almost every aspect of club life? 


Roland Waguespack

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2019, 12:26:45 PM »
Give a listen to Ran on the FriedEgg podcast (episode 123).  He and Andy discuss the 147 custodian courses and a good explanation.  Sorry if this what already mentioned.
https://thefriedegg.com/category/podcasts/
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V. Kmetz

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2019, 06:59:51 AM »

Actually V Kmetz,  at many clubs members are browbeat into taking a caddie and in the NYC metro area the value proposition is a joke. 

As someone who values the game I really don't need a pal on the course and I especially don't need someone to replace my divots, or rake my bunkers or even watch balls.  Almost every darn thing you even mention slows the game down.  It is a scam, that said I dutifully take a guy out every time it is required, and treat them with the utmost respect.


Then why did you ask in #28, if you already knew YOUR answer... to bloviate rhetorically?


Who is browbeating and who is running the "scam?" With what power or tools are they doing it?


"The raking, the yardages, the divots, the advice, the reads, a towel at hand, sight of an errant shot, consoling misses, celebrating good plays... human service and human interaction"  which of these is slowing you down because a caddie is doing it for/with you?

We know what YOU don't need Corey ol' bean, but being a member of a club is a bit larger enterprise. But by all means, announce your worldview to your future hosts, and prospective fellow members, so they can pass it on to their caddie staff... I'm sure once promulgated, the caddies will accommodate you by letting you carry your own (or whatever the fuck you want to do) as no one wants to work for a malcontent, who thinks the activity is a scam and is grudging every step and dollar paid...  it's quite alright, there will be a better loop for us tomorrow.



"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2019, 07:05:15 AM »
Wake up on the wrong side of the bed V? Live and let live.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2019, 07:23:02 AM »
Wake up on the wrong side of the bed V? Live and let live.

Ciao


No Sean..the tendentious direction of his remarks deserves pointed answer.  I wasn't nasty or leading in my reply to CM's 28...he took it here first ...and if he'll shut the fuck up, I will cease.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2019, 08:44:38 AM »
Wake up on the wrong side of the bed V? Live and let live.

Ciao

No Sean..the tendentious direction of his remarks deserves pointed answer.  I wasn't nasty or leading in my reply to CM's 28...he took it here first ...and if he'll shut the fuck up, I will cease.

Ok, escalate...lets see if that brings satisfaction.

Remember, the caddie thing is Ran's deal.

I gotta wonder if something is in the water. Seems like folks just want to blast off these days. Trump effect 😎?

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 09:25:15 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2019, 09:17:58 AM »
I get u SA... you're right ... it's all so disposable, the vibrant color of opinions on white males' social media board


...And I wanna wallop Ran too... his list (more its preamble actually) has been an annoyance from the day it was published, but it takes a lot to maintain a server, updates, tech issues, archives, glitches and monitoring...and I have only contributed a couple time$, so I'm not going to burn/battle with him over something he wants for the site, when he's not nasty, personal and its just a general macro opinion about a lot of things.


But a few of these guys...fuck them; they've gotten in enough glib shots and re-spread enough debunked manure to make it a pig farm around here



"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Sean_A

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Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2019, 09:29:26 AM »
...And I wanna wallop Ran too... his list (more its preamble actually) has been an annoyance from the day it was published, but it takes a lot to maintain a server, updates, tech issues, archives, glitches and monitoring...and I have only contributed a couple time$, so I'm not going to burn/battle with him over something he wants for the site, when he's not nasty, personal and its just a general macro opinion about a lot of things.

V

So you don't think caddies add a layer of complication and restriction to playing golf?  Thats all Ran is arguing...seems a reasonable opinion to hold.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 11:21:51 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2019, 11:05:36 AM »
...And I wanna wallop Ran too... his list (more its preamble actually) has been an annoyance from the day it was published, but it takes a lot to maintain a server, updates, tech issues, archives, glitches and monitoring...and I have only contributed a couple time$, so I'm not going to burn/battle with him over something he wants for the site, when he's not nasty, personal and its just a general macro opinion about a lot of things.

V

So you don't think caddies add a layer of complication and restriction to playing golf?  Thats all Ran s arguing...seems a reasonable opinion to hold.

Ciao


I think caddies are as original to the game as any element... I've never known a significant public moment in golf or bio of antiquity that didn't include it... I've never heard of Robertson, the Morris(ses), the Dunns, the Parks or the Triumvirate or Jones carrying their own bag for a quick round at a nearby great course, rather if anything themselves learning the game by caddying for someone else... if caddies are a layer of complication and restriction, then the game itself is complicated and restrictive from jump street.


Now I won't be so obtuse to ignore that the game has changed a lot from its origins, but so it should be recognized by Ran and to impose an ethos/criteria of this sort is to hunt and peck and politic for what is original, what is a custodian, with surprising ignorance of that earlier time... when so many other criteria of that mien are championed in his "list."


Long-serving caddies at large are as meaningful a custodian of the game as are these 147 clubs... in their understanding of courses and architecture, in their observations on trends and eras of players, in their assessment of changing mores and nuanced history of play...and yes, in their human interaction with the players... which unfortunately some are too busy and self-absorbed to catch.


cheers  vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 147 courses in the world
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2019, 11:28:25 AM »
V

I understand your PoV, but the question remains, is golf more or less complicated because of caddies?  If one wants simplified golf, I wouldn't think caddies are a high priority. We all have our own thoughts and ideas about the key elements of golf.  In this regard, I agree with Ran.  Caddies are an unnecessary element to enjoying the game at its most basic levels.  Not that I am against caddies or think they are a scam, but caddies are an added luxury which is not money I want to spend except for special circumstances. That said, if I were to have a 147 list, I doubt a caddie program would be deal breaker. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

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