What have you made of Hillside?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

For you Angles who can see Hillside on TV, what do you think of it? I like it, played it a number of times, and greatly enjoyed it. Nicklaus rated the back nine as good as any. I also got stung by several of you who thought I should not have included it in a golf book I wrote (almost two decades ago!).

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,


I have played Hillside quite a few times and always liked it. Strangely enough I found the front nine to be better than the back nine though the best run of holes are 10-12 and 16-18. However, 13-15 really were not up to the same standard and let the back nine down for me. Funnily enough I came across an old course book from my playing days dated 1990 which was an interesting read.


I know I will be in the minority but I prefer it to Formby and together with Birkdale and S&A there can be fewer better stretches of golf in the UK.

[David McIntosh]

Mark,

Just watching the action from Hillside for the first time this week. The wind is up and it’s looking good.

Jon,

Like you, I preferred the front side to the more acclaimed back nine. Just thought there was greater variety and enjoyed it more. Having said that, the best of the course is found on the run from 10-12 for me as well. I did like Formby quite a bit more though!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

The TV people, who do not necessarily see things the same way as the rest of us, have been highly in praise of it.


I suppose the disappointment is the back nine which weaves its way through the dunes rather than over them. I wonder if Hawtree was under restrictions when he laid these holes out.

[Martin Lehmann]

Hilleside for me is very much a 'what you see, is what you get' course. And I absolutely love that. It is the opposite of the over-designed 'l'Art pour l'Art' courses you see so often these days. Fred Hawtree just wanted to lay-out a very good golf course, nothing more and nothing less, instead of erecting a monument for himself, as many golf course architects tried to do in the past and still try to do. Hillside has a kind of simplicity and functionality to it, that is very appealing (at least in my view). At the same time, or maybe for that reason, the course is very beautiful too. Fred Hawtree used the same design philosophy (simple, functional, honest and well balanced) at a parkland lay-out in Belgium: Royal Waterloo. An absolute gem of a golf course.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Martin, I was interested in your view of Royal Waterloo, which I found rather underwhelming in the company of Royal Antwerp, Royal Belgique, Royal Sart-Tilman, Royal Zoute and, of course, des Fagnes. I spent a week in Belgium many years ago writing about the top courses, and very top most were. They were all uncommonly welcoming and helpful, apart from Royal Zoute where the secretary got into hot trouble for having let me out onto the course on my own. At Sart-Tilman I was treated to a glass of good Burgundy because the course was unplayable under snow. There was a course near Mons whose name I have now forgotten which had a lovely heathland thread nine, by Hawtree?

[Martin Lehmann]

Martin, I was interested in your view of Royal Waterloo, which I found rather underwhelming in the company of Royal Antwerp, Royal Belgique, Royal Sart-Tilman, Royal Zoute and, of course, des Fagnes. I spent a week in Belgium many years ago writing about the top courses, and very top most were. They were all uncommonly welcoming and helpful, apart from Royal Zoute where the secretary got into hot trouble for having let me out onto the course on my own. At Sart-Tilman I was treated to a glass of good Burgundy because the course was unplayable under snow. There was a course near Mons whose name I have now forgotten which had a lovely heathland thread nine, by Hawtree?

Mark, Did you play the La Marache course at Royal Waterloo? Because the other 18 holes they have at that club (Le Lion, designed by Belgian architect Paul Rolin) is quite bland indeed. La Marache is maybe a bit understated, but very beautiful and a joy to play. The heathland course you mention, probably is Royal Limburg (also known as 'Houthalen'). It is a Fred Hawtree design too and considered by many as the number one course in Belgium.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Martin, I did play Marache, not Le Lion. Overall I found the quality of the best Belgian courses excellent. It was a good experience.

[Bill Crane]

Wonderful looking links.   Need to get to this area since there are so many great courses.
 
Question -  the fairways mostly appeared quite flat to me.  Is that common to the area or did the last architect do some grading?   I think I read Martin Hawtree did work there?

West coast - can you expect frequent rain?

[Jeff_Lewis]

Many on this site are pretty well-traveled but if you haven't been to the Manchester/Liverpool area for a trip you must visit that area at some point.   So many GBI golf trips involve massive amounts of travel between courses.  The concentration in this area is really phenomenal. 

[Mark Chaplin]

Bill the fairways at Hillside are motorways between the dunes. Dreadfully overrated course. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Bill the fairways at Hillside are motorways between the dunes. Dreadfully overrated course.

Really Mark?,


I would suggest that the 13th & 14th fit this description to a T and the 15th with its acute dogleg is simply awful but none of the rest of the course can be damned as such. Yes, the fairways are certainly not undulating but then that is the nature of the dunes in that area.

[Adam Lawrence]

Yeah, I'm in the Chappers camp here. Hillside's back nine is the biggest disappointment in British golf (that I've seen). Such amazing terrain, yet the dunes and the golf are separated. To an extent, we are back to the debate about Birkdale -- are the fairways so flat as a result of poor construction work or because that's the nature of the terrain. I would play Lytham, Formby or Hoylake in a heartbeat over Hillside.

[Duncan Cheslett]

In my part of the world Hillside is generally held in awe and the back nine rated as the best in the country.


I played it with Jim Eder (late of this parish) some years ago and remember being superficially impressed with the grandeur of the dunes we played through but a little underwhelmed generally. Hillside is the only course I've ever paid £100 or more to play and I can't imagine ever going back if I have to pay full whack again.


Besides, I enjoy telling people that the best back nine in the country is less than 70 miles away at Cavendish!



 

[Adam Lawrence]

This photo of the par five eleventh really exemplifies my problem with Hillside. You have a beautiful landform that serves as the turning point of a dogleg, and the bunker protecting the point is separated from the landform and has, in its form, nothing to do with it. It would be the work of two days to rebuild that bunker so it was cut into the dune bank and its shape reflected the landform.




(edited to add: Now why is the photo not displaying?)


(edited a second time: Aha!)

[Clyde Johnson]

 It would be the work of two days to rebuild that bunker so it was cut into the dune bank and its shape reflected the landform.

With the right help! Though as you know, most clubs in the UK aren't willing to pay for that.

[Duncan Cheslett]

This photo of the par five eleventh really exemplifies my problem with Hillside. You have a beautiful landform that serves as the turning point of a dogleg, and the bunker protecting the point is separated from the landform and has, in its form, nothing to do with it. It would be the work of two days to rebuild that bunker so it was cut into the dune bank and its shape reflected the landform.

Hillside is a links course. As any fule kno, bunkers on links courses must all be identical revetted round pots.

A shaped bunker built into the bank would be so out of place!


 

[Adam Lawrence]

This photo of the par five eleventh really exemplifies my problem with Hillside. You have a beautiful landform that serves as the turning point of a dogleg, and the bunker protecting the point is separated from the landform and has, in its form, nothing to do with it. It would be the work of two days to rebuild that bunker so it was cut into the dune bank and its shape reflected the landform.

Hillside is a links course. As any fule kno, bunkers on links courses must all be identical revetted round pots.

A shaped bunker built into the bank would be so out of place!

 

chiz chiz

[Sean_A]

While very unattractive, the bunkering isn't my main issue. To me the back nine is not routed as much as it was built. Non-integrated bunkers don't help the situation, but I object to plowing through dunes rather than working with these features. I much prefer the front nine which is odd given how dynamic the back nine is. Bottom line, I suspect there is (was? ) a better course to be had on that site. Still, Hillside is a very good course, but one which pales in comparison to what I think is the best course in the area, Formby.


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

This photo of the par five eleventh really exemplifies my problem with Hillside. You have a beautiful landform that serves as the turning point of a dogleg, and the bunker protecting the point is separated from the landform and has, in its form, nothing to do with it. It would be the work of two days to rebuild that bunker so it was cut into the dune bank and its shape reflected the landform.




(edited to add: Now why is the photo not displaying?)


(edited a second time: Aha!)

I am not sure how you reach the conclusion it is separate from the land form when looking at the photo the bunker is clearly set into the base of the nose and not separate to it. I would agree the form of the bunker is not the best but that is a style question.


I would agree with Sean that the bunkering is not bad and the front nine is better than the back but I would suggest if it were possible to redo/reroute 13 through 15 the course could be improved. 10 & 11 as well as 16-18 are all excellent holes with the 12th being a solid one. 13 is not bad but with the uphill nature of the hole and the almost modern flavour of the green complex it is a jarring and unsatisfactory hole. 14 is trapped between two parallel dunes so it is difficult to know what could be done here and 15 is just dreadful from a design point and possibly best just walked along to get to the 16th.


Where I do not agree with Sean is that Formby is the best in the area. It is a very fine course but there is something which I cannot  put my finger on which makes the course not quite sit. I actually prefer to play the Ladies Course though accept the main course is better. However, Birkdale is for me clearly the better course though ridiculously over priced these days I was fortunate enough to have played this course 50 or 60 times back in the 80s & 90s.