diagonal carries

[GeoffreyC]

In the NGLA photo discussion George Bahto said

"The diagonal hazard is the continuous thread that runs through the National."  

Tom Paul agreed big time and in my limited knowledge of the course I agree with them.  However, upon thinking about this more, I am lead to conclude that diagonal carries and the choices they lead to could well be the single most enduring feature that is common to good architecture from the golden era AND the modern era.

Is there any more common feature of great architecture old and new?  

What are some of the best examples?

I love the use of the stream on at least three holes (two par 5's and one long par 4 at Siwanoy by Ross).

What better examples could their be then the tee shots at 1 and 16 at Sand Hills or just about every 18th hole tee shot on a Pete Dye course.

[TEPaul]

"I am lead to conclude that diagonal carries and the choices they lead to could well be the single most enduring feature that is common to good architecture from the golden era AND the modern era."

Geoffrey:

I can't imagine that the fundamental diagonal line in golf architecture could be topped as the overall ideal for playing golf. It offers any golfer his own progressive choices in both distance and direction and what accomplishes more than that? The only thing that could somehow be better than the fundamental diagonal (probably being of about 45 degrees) would be one that has some kind of height variableness to it somehow too! If you had all that what more is there? There isn't any more!

Plus if done in some natural curvi-linear way of apparent randomness it's really pretty to look at!

[Lou_Duran]

Geoffrey-

Your old friend Roger R. has done some interesting work in this regard on the RTJ trail in Alabama.  Specially when they were done en echelon, I thought that they were pretty neat, but definitely favored the long hitter.  I had to pick a very small spot to have the optimal angle, while my son just blew over them with impunity.  

[A_Clay_Man]

GC- I agree that the use of diagonals is endearing but it is why that interests me. I feel  they are a big part of the essence because they marry the players confidence and ego with the reality of their swing. Isnt that why there's the need for different levels (lz's) of accomodation?

[T_MacWood]

Lou
I'm having trouble picturing diagonal bunkers en echelon...please explain.

[TEPaul]

Geoffrey:

Don't you think it's odd and interesting that the very first man-made architectural expression ever was apparently Allan Roberston's first---the green and green-end at #17 TOC, perhaps one of the best and most effective diagonals ever known?

And that basically man-made architecture sort of concerned itself with the geometric perpindicular for about the next 40-50 years!?

I wonder why that was? Perhaps it was the basic lack of imagination of man to apply one form (architecture) to another form (the playing of golf) effectively.

Perhaps it even had something to do with other sports he was so aware of in that day such as the horse and the whole sport of steeplechasing (never saw a diagonal in that sport). One of the most curious examples seems to have been Marion G.C. in Mass--the very first work of obviously a very young George Thomas that looks far more like a perpindicular steeplechase course than a golf course.

Interesting in that Thomas turned out to be, in my opinion, probably the true great conceptual genius in the history of golf architecture, an avocation he never took a nickel for--but the guy was some kind of thinker!

[TEPaul]

"Lou
I'm having trouple picturing diagonal bunkers en echelon...please explain."

Tom MacW:

Simple really! Form a bunch of bunkers (like troops) in a straight line and then turn that line at about a 45 degree angle!  

Have you never been in the military my good man? One of the fundamental orders in marching is the "oblique march" order, as in "Oblique left march" or Oblique right march".

How in the holy hell do you think drill instructors and such steer troops? Do you think they say, "Hey boys see that tree (or whatever) over there? head for that!"?

No way! "Forward march", "about face march" and "oblique left march", and "oblique right march" is a military's drill instructor's "troop rudder" or "troop steering wheel". It may not be as seamless as a Rolls Royce but it's always gotten the job done!

[T_MacWood]

TE/Lou
I know what bunkers en echelon are and I know what diagonal bunkers are....I'm still not clear on diagonal bunkers en echelon...I'm picturing a single bunker zig-zagging down the length of the hole like some geometric snake or a cock-eyed diagonal version of the Victorian cop bunker arangement...perhaps you two have stumbled upon a revolutionary idea a la Mark Fine.

[Norbert P]

 One of the most dramatic that recurs in my nightmares is the 11th at Bayside (Axland, Proctor, O'neill, too) in Ogallala, Nebraaaska.

  http://www.baysidegolf.com

  The website does not give a good indiviual photo but the home page picture of #8 is worth a quick detour anyway.

  Basically you hit up and over natural grasses fronting a big ridge with a golden grassed tiara begemmed with menacing sand bunkers on the skyline.  The fairway is convex as well to add danger to getting too aggressive for the safer fatty landing area.  I'd love to play it again for real and not to wake up in a cold sweat from my tormenting dreams.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW;

I like your geometric snake bunker and your cock-eyed Victorian cop bunker but for a diagonal bunkers en echelon visualize a bunch of similar diagonal bunkers arranged along a straight line or if you want some en echelon bunkers on a diagonal visualize a bunch of little square or round bunkers or some other kind of similarly shaped bunkers arranged along a diagonal line!  

Whatever you do don't ever come here and look at Stone Harbor by Desmond Muirhead. I'm afraid just looking at it and its bunkers might blow your mind. Refrain from looking at any photos of it when it was built too. The same thing will happen to your mind!  

[RJ_Daley]

I'd like to add that interest in diagonals doesn't just have to be confined to "carries".   Diagonal ridges presenting favored landing areas, lines of charm, or opportunities to feed to somewhere else in the fairway, desirable or not desirable, are also characteristics that diagonals on ridges afford a course designer to take avantage of.  

[T_MacWood]

TE
It appears we have different definitions. My definition of a diagonal bunker is a diagonal cross bunker at about 45 degrees (could be one bunker or grouping of bunkers at a diagonal across the fairway). My definition of bunkers en echelon is based on the classic defintion, i.e. stepped bunkers--a bunker left at 130 yards, bunker right 180 yards, bunker left 220 yards or vice versa (the 16th at Shinnecock being a good example of en echelon).

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom and Tom Paul,

My experience is that a diagonal should run at 20-30 degrees max.  When you get sharper than that, the damn fairway looks about 90 degrees, and in fact,  driving hard enough to clear the hazard, and not run through the fairway gets pretty durn tuff.

Is the diagonal really the be all, end all of tee shots?  Wouldn't 14 of these carries get a teensy bit boring, just as 14 holes of flanking bunkers gets boring?

Shouldn't each of the (approximately) 14 long shots have some more variety?  An open field, sloped fairway, bottle neck between hazards, flank on the downwind side of the fairway, gradually narrowing fairway to challenge/choose long versus short, etc?  Would a mix of those kind of tee shots be more interesting?

And, what about average players?  The problem with too many diagonals is that the good player rarely misguages the shot, while the poor player often overestimates his ability.  That is the reason they aren't as popular today as features.

Just asking.....

[Lou_Duran]

TMac-

TEP described what I meant.

It is my understanding that a cross bunker (like on #7 at Scarlet) is very similar to a diagonal bunker/hazard, with the latter perhaps angling more one way or the other.  En echelon is in series, with each angled further from the tee and the shortest route to the hole requiring the greatest carry.

My point was that Rulewich (sp) incorporated a number of cross or diagonal bunkers at the RTJ Trail courses in Alabama.  One particular hole, a par 5, dog-leg right about 550 yards has a series of three cross bunkers beginning with one on the left center of the fairway and requiring a 230y+ carry.  The next bunker is a little further right and about a 250y carry.  The last bunker is likewise staggered with a 270y+ carry and goes most of the way to the right rough.  I tried to hit over the left edge of the center bunker, pushed it a tad, and was left with a short iron out of the sand (high lip) to get the ball back in play.  My son just aimed it over the left edge of the third (furthest right) bunker and let it rip.  He had an iron to the green on his second shot.  I had a middle iron for my third.

Sorry if my terminology is inprecise.  I thought that having lived in Texas for more than 20 years allowed me some equivalent of poetic license.  All I was trying to say was that the much maligned Mr. Rulewich did some interesting design work by placing three bunkers in the fairway, diagonally, requiring some strategery from us short knockers  .  And if all this further confuses you, I am really sorry.  I did pay some attention while completing a couple degrees at OSU and a few hundred rounds of golf at my beloved Scarlet.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Brauer,

I think the answer may lie in the viability of alternate routes of play for differing levels of players.

I think that is why NGLA succeeds so well.
The 3rd, 5th, 8th and 17th holes are examples of the choices golfers are given, based on their perception of their abilities.

I would agree with you with respect to the angles of the diagonals, 45 degrees is far too severe, while 20-30 degrees provides the temptation to be bold.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

#6 Friars Head can be one of the most imposing Cape carries I know of.

And then there's my nemisis--#14 at the Rustic Canyon Club, which hopefully isn't burnt to a crisp right now. (The fire has in fact hit the course I'm told)

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW;

Maybe you're right about bunkers en echelon being of the staggered variety. Then how about a diagonal bunker on the left at 130 then another diagonal bunker on the right at 180, then another diagonal bunker on the left at 220 and so on?

[TEPaul]

JeffB;

Although the diagonal in golf architecture seems to be a wonderful feature there are certainly a ton of applications of it I would think, green set-ups, fairway carries, whatever. I certainly wasn't thinking of diagonal carries on anything like 14 tee shots, maybe more like 4 or so and then any number of other interesting arrangement of shapes and features.

[Paul_Turner]

Is the diagonal hazard over used in modern architecture?  I love diagonal hazards but it usually requires a fairly obvious strategy.  Colt wrote very early on about diagonal bunker complexes.

[Paul_Turner]

PS

The greatest diagonal hazard hole on the planet is the 8th at Brancaster.

[Norbert P]

 Honorable obscured mentionable zircon drivable par 4...

  The 7th at Mad Russian in Colorado.  

  The carry over water is diagonal and the slope of the backing fairway rolls toward it and the front right of the green is fallaway back to the water (so that the second shot to green can still easily find previeously navigated water.)  It's a very cool hole.  

  Barona Creek has some/many terrific angled fairways - some actual carries to deal with as well.   The problem I find with them, which is not boredom, but staying behind (90 degrees) the back golfer on second shot.  With carts (ack!) it's even worse as we all drive to our respective golf balls and realize we're in line of friendly fire.  

  Jeffrey, very interesting about the 20-30 degree rule and golfer perceptions.

[T_MacWood]

Lou
What you describe sounds like bunkers en echelon.

TE
That sounds like the zig-zagging bunker complex down the length of the hole like an angular snake or an odd version of the Victorian cop bunker arrangement.

[GeoffreyC]

Very  intersting thoughts.

My original thought was that diagonal lines of play might be the most enduring feature common to modern and golden age design.  Yes, Jeff Brauer I agree that it might get boring if the feature was overused. Clearly, variety is still critical to enjoyable golf and a great course. However, is there a better general method to add strategy and as RJ said make you realize your limitations or pay the price yet at the same time provide alternate routes of play?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Is it possible that the word you're looking for is "Chevron" not
"Echelon" ?

Or is it, perhaps, a combination of the words,
and that you really meant "Chevrolet"  the car that you drove to the site ?