Bethpage Black Setup

[Nick Ribeiro]

I'll say it again, I meant in general. I think it would be cool to stand up on any classic tee with the same requirements the players had when the course was originally built. Some on here have already been honest and said they do not care about the original architects intent, just give them the course that it was and they will enjoy the course as it is knowing it's nothing as intended. That's their opinion and its fine..


In my opinion you can't call a course restored then step up to a par 4 tee with an iron and put yourself in a much better position then the player from a hundred years ago ever could with a driver.


This really is not that hard of a concept to understand.

[Mark Fedeli]

Strategic intent and intent of difficulty are two different things. It's clear that with Bethpage that you can't have one without harming the other. To argue for the latter, is to ignore the former, and vice versa. The evidence of the former is/was on the ground. There has still not been presented the actual evidence of the latter, which may very well exist, but has not been properly sited in these discussions. Where did the architect say that the course is intended as a stern test of the world's best players, and should be presented only in that manner forevermore? And why should the architect's preference carry as much as or more weight than his actual living work? I'll hang up and listen.

[Nick Ribeiro]

Strategic intent and intent of difficulty are two different things. It's clear that with Bethpage that you can't have one without harming the other. To argue for the latter, is to ignore the former, and vice versa. The evidence of the former is/was on the ground. There has still not been presented the actual evidence of the latter, which may very well exist, but has not been properly sited in these discussions. Where did the architect say that the course is intended as a stern test of the world's best players, and should be presented only in that manner forevermore? And why should the architect's preference carry as much as or more weight than his actual living work? I'll hang up and listen.

You couldn't redesign the course to your liking in the last thread and you can't do it here either. Pick a piece of vacant land or lobby to an architect on a new build for your personal masterpiece.

[Ben Hollerbach]

I'll say it again, I meant in general. I think it would be cool to stand up on any classic tee with the same requirements the players had when the course was originally built.

What are these requirements?

Is your argument more agains the equipment than it is against the course setup? If every player was outfitted with a set of hickory shafted clubs and mesh patter golf balls, would that fulfill those requirements?

Some on here have already been honest and said they do not care about the original architects intent, just give them the course that it was and they will enjoy the course as it is knowing it's nothing as intended. That's their opinion and its fine..

If the course is presented "that is was" doesn't it also mean it is "as intended"? even if "as intended" may not be as applicable to the game today?

In my opinion you can't call a course restored then step up to a par 4 tee with an iron and put yourself in a much better position then the player from a hundred years ago ever could with a driver.

In your opinion what is required to be restored? By definition, restoration is the act of returning something to its former condition. It sounds like your intent is that the condition is not concrete, so much that you're restoring physically what was once there, but in a more abstract sense regarding an expectation.


When built, the 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO was the fastest car in the world, the pinnacle of motoring excellence. In today's world, the GTO is a quick, but not overly fast car. What I'm understanding from you, is if you were to restore a GTO your intention would be to it in a way to restore not what the car was, but it's title as the fastest car in the world and the pinnacle of motoring excellence. Which is where some would argue, at that point you no longer have a 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO.

This really is not that hard of a concept to understand.

You have debated with great fervor and emotion about the original intent of the course, but I have yet to see you demonstrate compelling enough evidence to support your argument.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Strategic intent and intent of difficulty are two different things. It's clear that with Bethpage that you can't have one without harming the other. To argue for the latter, is to ignore the former, and vice versa. The evidence of the former is/was on the ground. There has still not been presented the actual evidence of the latter, which may very well exist, but has not been properly sited in these discussions. Where did the architect say that the course is intended as a stern test of the world's best players, and should be presented only in that manner forevermore? And why should the architect's preference carry as much as or more weight than his actual living work? I'll hang up and listen.

You couldn't redesign the course to your liking in the last thread and you can't do it here either. Pick a piece of vacant land or lobby to an architect on a new build for your personal masterpiece.

Mark asked a very valid question that is central to this discussion. Why would you reply in such a callous and disrespectful manor? I would very much like to hear a legitimate answer to Mark's question.

[Nick Ribeiro]

https://twitter.com/chambleebrandel/status/1129407259912622081

Finding the fairway should be the new "proper angle"

[Kyle Harris]

Hogan's 1-iron in 1953 had the same loft, lie, and length as a modern 4-iron. Listing numbered irons as a means of quantifying variation in setup is about as useful as trying to say a Niblick was "about" a 9-iron.


Until you can recognize a few facts this conversation is going to be terrible.


1. You likely will want to go back to the era of golf where you playing your best golf. For most of you, that isn't now, and it isn't in the future either.
2. The era of equipment many want to return to coincided with the era of golf architecture many feel was the worst since golf architecture became a thing.
3. We are better at teaching and playing golf than ever. Playing in the sense of getting the ball to the hole - not necessarily in striking it.

Ultimately, winning golf in a Championship is about beating the rest of the guys out there. The field is big enough that the guy doing so usually had the most complete tool box that week.

[Peter Flory]

Hogan's 1 iron was stolen, but it looks like his 2 iron had 18 degrees of loft on it.  That would probably mean that the 1 iron was around 15 degrees. 

[Kyle Harris]

Hogan's 1 iron was stolen, but it looks like his 2 iron had 18 degrees of loft on it.  That would probably mean that the 1 iron was around 15 degrees.

Okay, I'm a club and a half off (by traditional gaps of 4 degrees, at least) The PXG 4iron is at 21 degrees.

[Nick Ribeiro]

Brooks sets 2 day record! Wow! Fair to judge the course for being too easy.

[Tim Martin]

Hogan's 1 iron was stolen, but it looks like his 2 iron had 18 degrees of loft on it.  That would probably mean that the 1 iron was around 15 degrees.

Okay, I'm a club and a half off (by traditional gaps of 4 degrees, at least) The PXG 4iron is at 21 degrees.

I recently saw some TaylorMade irons that listed the loft of the 4 iron at 19.5 degrees.

[Jim Nugent]

Hogan's 1 iron was stolen, but it looks like his 2 iron had 18 degrees of loft on it.  That would probably mean that the 1 iron was around 15 degrees.

Okay, I'm a club and a half off (by traditional gaps of 4 degrees, at least) The PXG 4iron is at 21 degrees.

I recently saw some TaylorMade irons that listed the loft of the 4 iron at 19.5 degrees.

Do other aspects of the new irons -- design/manufacture -- compensate for the lower loft?  i.e. is it easier to hit today's 4-iron compared to yesteryear's 2 or 3 iron? 

[Brian Colbert]

To put what Brooks is doing into context....


155 players finished 36 holes with a mean score of 144.66


Those 155 players produced a standard deviation of 5.62


Brooks Koepka at 128 produces a result which is 2.96 standard deviations ahead of the mean (known as "Z Score")


Z score of 2.96 places Brooks in the .9985 percentile of performances of the field


-5 in second place represents a Z score of 1.71, in the .9564 percentile, and more than 1 standard deviation behind -12


The PGA has the #1 ranked field in the OWGR every year


Perhaps we should consider that the course is challenging the world's best, and we are just seeing someone who can navigate that challenge in historic fashion.

[Matthew Rose]

I found an old scorecard... not sure what year, but based on the yardages, it is obviously pre-reno.

Less than 6800 yards..... wow...

[Mike Sweeney]

Nice find Matthew.


On the thread about the BB Par 3's, this fills in the questions about "The Short", which was #3 and the old version looked very cool. I played the shorter version, but not with this bunkering or green size:





The 6th hole is the short Par 4 that BB is now missing, and it could be so much better with a wider lower fairway to go for off the tee box:

[jeffwarne]

https://twitter.com/chambleebrandel/status/1129407259912622081

Finding the fairway should be the new "proper angle"

both you and Chamblee (#Koepka #often wrong but never in doubt)
make perfect arguments for rolling back equipment
for the record I'm ok with the setup for the PGA-not its existence pre and post PGA
8.5 indexes that need the same setup to "test" themselves are delusional

[Chris Mavros]

"You have debated with great fervor and emotion about the original intent of the course, but I have yet to see you demonstrate compelling enough evidence to support your argument."

Please see below:

"The most famous characteristic of the Black is its punishing nature, and this was very much the original design intent."  Thomas Dunne


"It was Burbeck's idea to develop one of these (Bethpage) layouts along lines which were to be severe to a marked degree.  It was his ambition to have something which might compare with Pine Valley as a great test..."  AW Tillinghast


Punishing Nature.  Severe to a marked degree. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Strangely, this event reminds me of two of Hale Irwin's US Open wins, at Winged Foot and Medinah  -- except that Irwin (like runner up Mike Donald at Medinah) were far from the longest hitters in those days and may well have been (I don't know) actually among the shorter drivers on tour. Same narrow fairways, same deep rough, same test/reward for hitting it straight off the tee, but not nearly the same significant premium on sheer overpowering length. Can it be that after all these years most major championship golf is getting even *more* one dimensional? Would even Sandy Tatum and his (in)famous 'not embarrass but identify' maxim -- uttered around the Massacre at Winged Foot -- think that a development that cut the Hale Irwins of the game completely out of the equation a good thing?

[Nick Ribeiro]

https://twitter.com/chambleebrandel/status/1129407259912622081

Finding the fairway should be the new "proper angle"

both you and Chamblee (#Koepka #often wrong but never in doubt)
make perfect arguments for rolling back equipment
for the record I'm ok with the setup for the PGA-not its existence pre and post PGA
8.5 indexes that need the same setup to "test" themselves are delusional

I agree with rolling back equipment but not sure its realistic to thing it will happen
I never said I would like to play Bethpage day in and day out, I like to visit every not and then for some variety, along with thousands of others. Why is it such a bad thing? a scratch, 5 handicap, 20 handicap, or even beginner can have fun testing their game against a championship course they see on TV.


Delusional is bastardizing original intent to the degree of the courses identity being stolen from it, just because we want to make ourselves feel like we are remotely close to the same ability we see on TV. Sorry bud, I live in the real world.

[Nick Ribeiro]

"You have debated with great fervor and emotion about the original intent of the course, but I have yet to see you demonstrate compelling enough evidence to support your argument."

Please see below:

"The most famous characteristic of the Black is its punishing nature, and this was very much the original design intent."  Thomas Dunne


"It was Burbeck's idea to develop one of these (Bethpage) layouts along lines which were to be severe to a marked degree.  It was his ambition to have something which might compare with Pine Valley as a great test..."  AW Tillinghast


Punishing Nature.  Severe to a marked degree.

Changing the course to what we want it to be; wide open fairways, a half par hole (or few), eliminating strategy and challenge off the tee, removing the rough, or (the best one IMO) making Bethpage look like the old course, bastardizes these great quotes. Thanks for sharing.

[Thomas Dai]

Recent BPB threads?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s8WOHN3IqM8

Atb

[Nick Ribeiro]

Recent BPB threads?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s8WOHN3IqM8
 
Atb

I disagree, some are coming around 

[Tom_Doak]

I found an old scorecard... not sure what year, but based on the yardages, it is obviously pre-reno.

Less than 6800 yards..... wow...

They might have abandoned a couple of the original tees at that point.  I know when I first played it, in 1979, there was a map of the course that had a tee for the ninth hole up above #8 green.  I went to look for it, but it was in the woods by that point.  The course had been pretty neglected from a design standpoint for some time.

[Peter Flory]

The scoreboard to me looks very similar to the 2003 scoreboard for the US open at OFCC.  Here were the scores of even or lower.

2019 PGA:
-8
-6
-2
-2
-1
E

2003 US Open:
-8
-5
-1
E

I remember that there was a lot of criticism that Olympia wasn't providing a stern enough US Open test.  Nobody is arguing that Bethpage was easy this week.  I wonder if this is just that the players have gotten better and everyone takes that into account. 

Lowest single round score for each tournament was 63. 

Back in 2003 Phil Mickelson said:
"This is by far the fairest test of the US Open I've been to.  It's nothing like Bethpage."