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Thomas_Brown

Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« on: October 26, 2003, 01:16:17 AM »
I'm curious to hear opinions on "What is the best Maximalist design?" out there.

This group tends to favor "Minimalism", which I think is best defined by the amount of environment change the architect undertakes.  Mostly defined by dirt moving and lake creation I think, but I think size and shape of the putting green might be open to debate.  Tom Doak is used as the prime e.g.

"Maximalism" would be the logical opposite.

PGA West Stadium gets a lot of praise(and complaints).  I think that's a maximalist design which is fun.

Champions in Houston?
(new)Torrey Pines
almost anything in the desert of So. Cal.?

After what happened w/ Darren Kilfara's post, should I put flame retardant clothing on?

Tom

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2003, 01:26:59 AM »
Tom,
This is one where I hope I can tell you soon over a beer.

Lets do it soon.

(No, it isn't Shady Canyon, Quarry @ La Quinta or Shadow Creek, and it used to be PGA West Stadium for me.)

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2003, 03:54:00 AM »
Candidates:

Shadow Creek
Glen Club-was US Army Airfield in Chicago suburb
Whistling Straits
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

TEPaul

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2003, 06:31:26 AM »
I still feel that the idea of "minimalism" is basically somewhat misunderstood. I think there're two types of minimalism.

One, a golf course such as Sand Hills where it's a known fact that the golf holes really are basically all natural landforms that were well identified and utilized and that the quantity of earth movement there really was very minimal.

Two, a course perhaps like Shinnecock where there may have been much more earth movement but in such a way that it's almost impossible to detect. Why is that? Because the architect used probably a good deal of earth movement to cut and fill, to build up in some instances golf holes that just appear to be minimalist. How does he do that? By really studying how to TIE IN his earthmoving architecture into those natural grades, slopes, twists and turns, as if nothing had been done.

Maximalism, is something that uses massive earth-movement but it's patently obvious, certainly to a fairly studied eye not just how much has been done but what and where it was done. This kind of architecture looks created and some architects obviously think that's a good thing--perhaps something to be proud of. They obviously think it's OK to show exactly what they did move and how well it works and in some cases that is true, and their holes and courses often turn out to prove that to be true!

There's no question that both minimalisitic architecture and maximalistic architecture can play both good and bad, though, so either one is never the final story!

If you want two really great examples of minimalistic architecture I'd give you both the 14th green and the 18th green at Shinnecock, particularly #18. That green sits into its overall "situation" in an absolutely gorgeous and natural way. I have a real good idea what Flynn did with #14 green because I've read about what he did but I'd have to check the contour map of Shinnecock again to determine if he did a lot on #18 green or nothing at all! That's an example of real minimalistic architecture to me.

Here're two good examples of maximalistic architecture--#7 green and #8 green at NGLA. Not only did Macd/Raynor move a substantial amount of earth for that time on those greens given what they are--the first in flat topography and the other not but it really shows to anyone who looks at either of those greens.

But the real point is how do all those holes--Shinnecock's #14 and #18 and NGLA's #7 and #8 play despite whether they look created or not? They all play just great and time has definitely confirmed that.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2003, 06:36:24 AM by TEPaul »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2003, 08:13:01 AM »
 TT for best maxi.

How about this? The best maxi during the age of the mini. (Pre-1945)
I'd say the winner is Lawsonia. But, I havent seen all that much but I bet there was alot of dirt moved to build those green complexes at Lawsonia.

TEPaul

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2003, 09:08:10 AM »
Strong, Banks, Raynor, Macdonald, Langford (Moreau)=maxi architecture.

Super maxi, enormous earth moving=Lido by Macdonald/Raynor but amazingly it didn't appear to look like it. The cost of that ultra earthmoving project, more like massive dredging and filling, cost more money relative to that time than we can imagine. But still it appears in the end it didn't look like maxi architecture!

T_MacWood

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2003, 09:53:45 AM »
TE
Strong is a maxi architect...please explain?

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2003, 10:21:52 AM »
Pete Dye has to be Fazio's equal as a max architect. There is a little place in wisconsin that has as much dirt moved as anywhere.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2003, 10:38:18 AM »
Thomas Brown,

Would you include NGLA, Yale and Lido under the maximalist category ?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2003, 10:42:59 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

T_MacWood

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2003, 01:23:27 PM »
Patrick
Would you...if so, why...if not, why not?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2003, 01:31:18 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I can understand your wanting an answer to this question, but, It was my question, and I asked it first, so you'll have to wait for me to get my response.

TEPaul

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2003, 02:38:28 PM »
Well, then, if you guys have to play eeny, meeny, miiny mo  before you come up with an anwser then I will.

NGLA--relatively maximalist, and probably quite maxi for its time.
Yale--Very maxi for it's time
Lido--the maxiest of its time--and probably by miles--all in all one of the maxiest ever, perhaps! But after it was all said and done it really didn't seem to look like it!

Looks like C.B. was just a maxi kind of guy with plenty of moxy!

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2003, 02:50:26 PM »
 Does Red Raider (Doak and crew) qualify as minimalistic through maximalistic methods?

 Kahuku on Oahu is minimalism to the max.  It's bitchin', rad and shreds!!!
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2003, 03:02:21 PM »
There's a $5 greens fee short nine hole golf course in north Idaho called Rimrock.  It is pancake flat and takes up only 15 acres or so.  There are no tees -- just 9 stone markers.  The greens are all circular.  The owner mows the course with two settings on his mower, one for greens and one for the rest of the course.  Not one thimblefull of dirt was moved to make Rimrock.  This place is more nil-ism than minimalism...  The priceless thing about this place is the pro shed sells logo balls!

JC  

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2003, 03:13:26 PM »
What's the name of the Des Muirhead course in Korea that reportedly moved 40 million CY's of earth! :o  That may take the cake!

I can't say it is the best, but it might very well be the most. ::)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2003, 03:14:28 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Thomas_Brown

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2003, 04:26:03 PM »
Patrick_Mucci - I haven't played any of the 3 notable clubs you mentioned.  :( Demerits on my resume.
BTW - The vicarious living thru the pics of NGLA recently was especially demoralizing.

From what I read Yale really sounds like it is a strong candidate for maxi. arch.
Is any course w/ a Biarritz green complex really minimalist?
I have played (and loved) North Berwick, and I can see the par 3 15th redan as being there naturally, but I'm unsure of the par 4 16th.  I'll wait for my GCA excommunication notice on this comment!  :-*

As I was reading this, I was curious to hear thoughts about Tillinghast designs.  His most striking feature was his use of enlarged sand pits(technical term).  I've played several of his courses and I love this feature visually.  16 at Bethpage, and I think 2 at SFGC were definitely dug.  Tillinghast's pits seem to be more natural than say #16 at PGA West, though I'm not sure why - Some Tillinghast pits seem as equally ridiculous when you're stuck in them.  Though, Tillinghast greens are fairly natural & flat.  That's why Bethpage was so easy for Tiger.  ;)

Tom

T_MacWood

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2003, 05:15:59 PM »
I've never cared for the term minimalist; maximalist is even worse.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2003, 05:35:58 PM »
Jay Morish claims he is a "necessitist" meaning he'll move no earth if he can, but doesn't hestiate to move it when necessary, in his opinon for visibility, playability, etc. I probably fall into that school, as well.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2003, 05:57:33 PM »
Thomas Brown,

Are you sure that you don't mean # 15 at Bethpage ?

NGLA is special, and it would be nice if George Bahto could post more photos of one of the great architectural masterpieces in all of golf.

TEPaul

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2003, 08:19:19 PM »
Since NGLA really is so fascinating to so many and it is the one that has the rep of being the "engineered" architecture perhaps it would be worthwhile for those who know the golf course to try to determine both what and where out there is manufactured exactly and what is natural grade! Probably the best thing to do would be to start on #1. Unfortunately it will probably be largely guesswork because as far as I know no topo contour map was done or used there before or during construction or else it no longer exists or is available. I understand whatever contour lines MacD/Raynor were interested in or concerned about they just shot wherever and whenever they felt it necessary.

T_MacWood

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2003, 09:47:06 PM »
The subject of earth moving at NGLA came up before and George Bahto stated suprising little was done.

I suspect that is also true with Yale...other than lay down a medium of muck to allow grass to grow on the rock and sand.

What do you think Pat?

Gary_Smith

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2003, 09:49:26 PM »
Where would some of you fellows familiar with Merion East, Oakmont, and Pine Valley place them on the mini-maxi scale?

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2003, 09:52:25 PM »
Tom MacXylem., Asking directly to Pat for an answer is sort of like asking a man where he is from...
 If he's from Oregon... he'll tell ya.  If he ain't, don't embarrass him.  (oy)
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2003, 10:21:30 PM »
Tom MacWood,
The subject of earth moving at NGLA came up before and George Bahto stated suprising little was done.

What does "surpisingly little" equate to in cubic yards ?

I suspect that is also true with Yale...other than lay down a medium of muck to allow grass to grow on the rock and sand.

What do you think Pat?

What do I think ?  I think you're wrong

T_MacWood

Re:Minimalist vs. Best Maximalist course
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2003, 10:41:28 PM »
Pat
I have no idea how many cubic yards. George had the figure a while back....if I'm not mistaken he was correcting your mistaken opinion at the time. Perhaps he will see this.

Slag
I know you aren't saying Pat doesn't have any answers...just questions. Every once in a while its healthy to see if Pat might share some of his knowledge with us...and sometimes he does...unfortunately this ain't one of them.