Par 3 Templates at Bethpage Black

[Andrew Carr]

I'm sorry if this topic has been covered before.


Obviously when the world template comes up, many think to Macdonald/Raynor/Banks, but it appears the Tillinghast has built some templates as well.  Without getting into the Joseph Burbank/A.W. Tillinghast debate, clearly all the holes at Bethpage Black today were "modified" by Rees Jones in preparation for the 2002 US Open.  The bones of some of the par 3s appear to have template features.


The 3rd hole seems like it was more of a Redan with the orientation of the green and the fronting bunkering and I'm wondering if anyone has photos of the hole and more specifically of the green prior to Rees's work.


The green at the 17th seems to have more of a Short template with the tiered green and bunkering.  At 199 yards, it certainly isn't playing like one today.  Does anyone know what distance it played from when built?


The 8th appears to be more of an Eden, with the back to front tilt of the green, the Hill bunker left and Eden behind.  Obviously, it's missing the Strath and Shelly, but the water functions as a Shelly.


Either way, maybe I'm seeing what I want to see, but for those who know more about The Black than me, what say you?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The actual Redan is the 4th on the Red!  The 3rd on the Black looks Redanish, but does not play that way.  The green actually slopes to the right the last 2/3.  Also, there is no kicking effect on the front right.

[Andrew Carr]

I agree that there is't one today, but was there one prior to Rees Jones arriving on property?

The actual Redan is the 4th on the Red!  The 3rd on the Black looks Redanish, but does not play that way.  The green actually slopes to the right the last 2/3.  Also, there is no kicking effect on the front right.

[Mark Fedeli]

I agree that there is't one today, but was there one prior to Rees Jones arriving on property?

The actual Redan is the 4th on the Red!  The 3rd on the Black looks Redanish, but does not play that way.  The green actually slopes to the right the last 2/3.  Also, there is no kicking effect on the front right.

I believe the front right of #3 actually had a bunker protecting it in the old days, so an aerial approach was required for the entire green. They only just last year added the bit of fairway on the front right, which may give the illusion that it could've once been a Redan.

[Andrew Carr]

I agree that there is't one today, but was there one prior to Rees Jones arriving on property?

The actual Redan is the 4th on the Red!  The 3rd on the Black looks Redanish, but does not play that way.  The green actually slopes to the right the last 2/3.  Also, there is no kicking effect on the front right.

I believe the front right of #3 actually had a bunker protecting it in the old days, so an aerial approach was required for the entire green. They only just last year added the bit of fairway on the front right, which may give the illusion that it could've once been a Redan.

Does anyone have photos or an aerial from shortly after Tillinghast completed the course?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

All aerial photos make the 3rd appear to be a Redan.  Those who have played a lot of Dye courses are conditioned to his evoking a Redan look that is anything but a Redan.  Having never heard about the 3rd green complexn being altered, except for the bunker redos, this hole could never have been a Redan, but was certainly an evocation of Redan.  I played a lot of tournaments on the Black, and possess the topographical map, and the 3rd is a really cool and subtle green.

[Tom_Doak]

In my experience, Tillinghast and Colt both built quite a few par-3's that looked like a Redan in plan - green angling away behind a front left bunker - but in general they didn't tilt those greens like the Redan.


That's how I remember the 3rd on the Black to be when I first played it, c. 1979.

[Mark Fedeli]

I agree that there is't one today, but was there one prior to Rees Jones arriving on property?

The actual Redan is the 4th on the Red!  The 3rd on the Black looks Redanish, but does not play that way.  The green actually slopes to the right the last 2/3.  Also, there is no kicking effect on the front right.

I believe the front right of #3 actually had a bunker protecting it in the old days, so an aerial approach was required for the entire green. They only just last year added the bit of fairway on the front right, which may give the illusion that it could've once been a Redan.

Does anyone have photos or an aerial from shortly after Tillinghast completed the course?

This is the best I can pull up right now (green is at bottom). But shows what appears to be a rather deep bunker guarding the entire front-right of the green and extending back toward the tee quite a bit. Definitely no run-up opportunity.

[Adam Lawrence]

In my experience, Tillinghast and Colt both built quite a few par-3's that looked like a Redan in plan - green angling away behind a front left bunker - but in general they didn't tilt those greens like the Redan.


That's how I remember the 3rd on the Black to be when I first played it, c. 1979.

The seventh at Le Touquet (La Mer) is quite Redanish, but as the evidence is that course was largely Alison, it doesn't prove anything about Tom's Colt point!

[Tom_Doak]

In my experience, Tillinghast and Colt both built quite a few par-3's that looked like a Redan in plan - green angling away behind a front left bunker - but in general they didn't tilt those greens like the Redan.

The seventh at Le Touquet (La Mer) is quite Redanish, but as the evidence is that course was largely Alison, it doesn't prove anything about Tom's Colt point!

Adam:  I was thinking of holes like the 3rd at St George’s Hill, or the 4th at Swinley Forest.  Both of those are surely Colt himself.

[Nigel Islam]

Was seventeen approached from a different angle originally? I seem to remember hearing that but I’ve never actually read it.

[Michael Felton]

In my experience, Tillinghast and Colt both built quite a few par-3's that looked like a Redan in plan - green angling away behind a front left bunker - but in general they didn't tilt those greens like the Redan.

The seventh at Le Touquet (La Mer) is quite Redanish, but as the evidence is that course was largely Alison, it doesn't prove anything about Tom's Colt point!

Adam:  I was thinking of holes like the 3rd at St George’s Hill, or the 4th at Swinley Forest.  Both of those are surely Colt himself.

The first time I heard Redan, it was about the 4th at Swinley. I never really pictured 3 at SGH to be angled that way. I thought it was just round with a ridge running through the middle of it (total aside, but I love the green on the par three on the back nine there around 14 - I'm kind of surprised that hasn't been mimicked more).

I've also thought perhaps 3 on BPB was supposed to be a Redan, but they forgot to build the green up. Would be awesome if they did. That banking on the back right there could play the part of the back bunker.

As to 17, I always imagined a Short would be deeper than that green. It's very wide, but it's extremely shallow.

[Ronald Montesano]

What I know is, when we played all five BP courses in 2011, the courses other than Black were the ones (rightfully so) that would evoke the Golden Age. The 14th would have been the ideal location for a short. I've never seen an uphill one, and the 17th plays slightly uphill.


As pointed out by many, original photos would be key. Cannot imagine that Tilly was as taken with templates as was CBM.