[John Kirk]

First of all, it's only natural that once golf became a big money professional sport, it's only natural that the competition for high paying positions on the PGA Tour would increase dramatically.

Many years ago when I was in college, I went to play pickup basketball, and ended up in a game with an All-American OG at my school, who is now in the College Football Hall of Fame.  To my shock, he was just AWFUL; no hand-eye coordination, no shooting skills, nothing.  If you'd seen him play, he would have been the last person in the gym that you would have picked to have an NFL career ahead of him.  But he did because his skill set was suited to that, despite his lack of basketball talent.

I'll offer a counterexample to A.G.'s experience.  I grew up in Palo Alto, CA.  My Dad worked at Stanford University, and for a few years we had access to the Stanford basketball gyms, which we used regularly for pickup games at lunchtime.  You would see some seriously gifted athletes at Stanford.  One day in 1976, the competition had dwindled, and we were playing the last games of the day after 1:00 PM, and I got matched up against James Lofton, who went on to a Hall of Fame career in the NFL.  He was also the NCAA long jump champion in 1978.  At the time, I was probably 17 years old and a devoted basketball player.  Lofton was probably 19, about two inches taller than me, and not very skilled at basketball.  He could shoot a little, but it didn't matter.  He was so fast and quick I couldn't do much on offense.  He was big enough to score a few baskets against me as well.  I was a pretty fast runner, but he was just so big and fast.  He was quiet but nice, while taking some amusement in shutting me down.  Very humbling.

Basketball and football have similar skill sets.  If you are big, fast and quick witted, you have a big advantage.  In basketball you can't be shy about physical contact.  To be a football player, the desire for physical confrontation must be considerably greater.  I think baseball and hockey have skill sets that are more closely aligned with golf skills, but all these sports have overlapping skill sets.  It helps to be big and strong, and it helps if you like to battle and compete.  Most important is a love and desire to play the game.  It's common for an excellent athlete to be good at many sports, but not at a professional level, because it takes so much time and dedication to get to the top.  It's no surprise that the two baseball/football combo athletes, Deion Sanders and Bo Jackson, possessed extraordinary speed.

I have trouble seeing Dustin Johnson, Brooks Koepka or pretty much any other pro golfer succeeding in baseball, basketball or football.  Definitely not basketball or football.  The chances that Koepka or Johnson could run fast enough for their size is remote, 1-1000 or more.  One last random thought: I'm under the impression that having superior eyesight is a necessary trait for a baseball hitter, that having 20/15 or even 20/12 vision is common in the big leagues.

https://www.smartvisionlabs.com/blog/mlb-players-2020-vision-just-isnt-enough/


Jeff Schley,
I can't remember what the exact numbers were, but I think you suggested that an athlete needed 4.5 speed to play linebacker or safety in D-1 football.  That sounds a bit fast to me, since 4.5 speed seems about typical for fast NFL linebackers.  My sense is you are exaggerating the required speed slightly, but maybe I'm wrong.     

[Jeff Schley]

First of all, it's only natural that once golf became a big money professional sport, it's only natural that the competition for high paying positions on the PGA Tour would increase dramatically.

Many years ago when I was in college, I went to play pickup basketball, and ended up in a game with an All-American OG at my school, who is now in the College Football Hall of Fame.  To my shock, he was just AWFUL; no hand-eye coordination, no shooting skills, nothing.  If you'd seen him play, he would have been the last person in the gym that you would have picked to have an NFL career ahead of him.  But he did because his skill set was suited to that, despite his lack of basketball talent.

I'll offer a counterexample to A.G.'s experience.  I grew up in Palo Alto, CA.  My Dad worked at Stanford University, and for a few years we had access to the Stanford basketball gyms, which we used regularly for pickup games at lunchtime.  You would see some seriously gifted athletes at Stanford.  One day in 1976, the competition had dwindled, and we were playing the last games of the day after 1:00 PM, and I got matched up against James Lofton, who went on to a Hall of Fame career in the NFL.  He was also the NCAA long jump champion in 1978.  At the time, I was probably 17 years old and a devoted basketball player.  Lofton was probably 19, about two inches taller than me, and not very skilled at basketball.  He could shoot a little, but it didn't matter.  He was so fast and quick I couldn't do much on offense.  He was big enough to score a few baskets against me as well.  I was a pretty fast runner, but he was just so big and fast.  He was quiet but nice, while taking some amusement in shutting me down.  Very humbling.

Basketball and football have similar skill sets.  If you are big, fast and quick witted, you have a big advantage.  In basketball you can't be shy about physical contact.  To be a football player, the desire for physical confrontation must be considerably greater.  I think baseball and hockey have skill sets that are more closely aligned with golf skills, but all these sports have overlapping skill sets.  It helps to be big and strong, and it helps if you like to battle and compete.  Most important is a love and desire to play the game.  It's common for an excellent athlete to be good at many sports, but not at a professional level, because it takes so much time and dedication to get to the top.  It's no surprise that the two baseball/football combo athletes, Deion Sanders and Bo Jackson, possessed extraordinary speed.

I have trouble seeing Dustin Johnson, Brooks Koepka or pretty much any other pro golfer succeeding in baseball, basketball or football.  Definitely not basketball or football.  The chances that Koepka or Johnson could run fast enough for their size is remote, 1-1000 or more.  One last random thought: I'm under the impression that having superior eyesight is a necessary trait for a baseball hitter, that having 20/15 or even 20/12 vision is common in the big leagues.

https://www.smartvisionlabs.com/blog/mlb-players-2020-vision-just-isnt-enough/


Jeff Schley,
I can't remember what the exact numbers were, but I think you suggested that an athlete needed 4.5 speed to play linebacker or safety in D-1 football.  That sounds a bit fast to me, since 4.5 speed seems about typical for fast NFL linebackers.  My sense is you are exaggerating the required speed slightly, but maybe I'm wrong.     

John, to play Weakside Outiside Linebacker in a 3-4 defense today this what you are targeting and certainly a safety (either strong or free safety that speed is needed) as a must. It really depends on if the defensive coordinator wants to use that weakside OLB as a rush man or drop him into coverage.  Typically nowadays the OLB’s have to be adept at pass coverage with so many 3/4 WR offensive formations as many offenses are 2/3 pass plays.


In the years past 15 or more years ago I would agree that the OLB’s needed probably 4.7 speed. For example Alabama is one of the few offenses recently that used a Pro Set offense with an I formation and a tight end/fullback running blasts and powers, which doens’t happen much anymore.

[jeffwarne]

 The chances that Koepka or Johnson could run fast enough for their size is remote, 1-1000 or more. 

Not sure what running fast enough for their size means but..DJ can dunk and shoot and If you went into the gallery at a PGA Tour event and grabbed the best DJ or Koepka look alike,or for that matter any college athlete, what do you think the chances are they could hit a golf ball 335 yards into a 24 yard fairway-then foolow it up with a lob shot that stops on a dime?
way lower than one in a thousand...


I'd bet my life either could've played college football(nearly a hundred kids on each college football roster), basketball(see Gary Woodland) or baseball(maybe as pitchers if they failed the eye test(and I'd argue your eyes have to be pretty good to putt at a tour level)


(which fortunately for me is unproveable )

[John Kirk]

Thanks for the responses.

I watched a couple of videos of Dustin Johnson and Gary Woodland "shooting the rock", as they say in the recent Geico commercial.  Guys like them are so driven to succeed in whatever they do, I would likely have had a hard time competing with them for spots on most basketball teams.  Woodland averaged six points a game as a freshman on his division II basketball team before moving to the University of Kansas and golf.  The article I read said he played on Kansas state high school champions, and was a great shooter.  Johnson is big and strong, and probably a better outside shooter than I was, too.  But a 6'0" shoot first guard, or a 6'4" jumper and shooter, could be bad fits for bigger basketball programs.  DJ would be a tweener size wise, but he has huge hands.  The fact he is bow-legged is an advantage for basketball (and other sports).  A lot would depend on what the coach was looking for in players.  I played before the three point shot was instated, and my coach didn't care much for guys enamored with the long shot.  Now it's much more important.  And you can't tell how well these individual skills translate into a desire to cooperate, see the floor and opportunities for other players, ability to judge rebounds, all that spatial and movement orientation.  That stuff is learned over years and years of experience.


In football, I'm certain what Jeff says is true, that speed and size are very important, and coaches work hard to teach the rest.

Anyway, thanks again.   

[Kalen Braley]

Tony Finau has some BBall game.  He was recruited by two D1 schools here in Utah to play Basketball, in addition to much bigger fish like Stanford to play golf. (I read another article, but can't find it now, that he led the state in rebounds his senior year at West high)


https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/watch-tony-finau-says-hes-the-best-dunker-on-the-pga-tour/

[corey miller]

All this conjecture is fine and good and we can talk all we want about projecting the skills in one sport to other sports and DJ and Koepka might fit the bill looks wise but unless you are a significant outlier I have a hard time describing anyone that can't run fast (say a 5.0 which BTW is not fast in the elite sports world) as an elite athlete. 


Of course we will probably never know how fast they are but it is silly to say that someone "looks like an NFL linebacker" and then project that they could somehow perform in the given sport. 


That said, there are some sports where athletes are able (in the course of performing)to  show some of the requisites of being an elite athlete. 

[Phil McDade]

All this conjecture is fine and good and we can talk all we want about projecting the skills in one sport to other sports and DJ and Koepka might fit the bill looks wise but unless you are a significant outlier I have a hard time describing anyone that can't run fast (say a 5.0 which BTW is not fast in the elite sports world) as an elite athlete. 


Of course we will probably never know how fast they are but it is silly to say that someone "looks like an NFL linebacker" and then project that they could somehow perform in the given sport. 


That said, there are some sports where athletes are able (in the course of performing)to  show some of the requisites of being an elite athlete.

Because, you know, this guy's not an elite athlete (I'm 99.9% positive he can't run 40 yds in 5.0):


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Phelps

[corey miller]

I think in the context of this thread the "elite athlete" is someone that has the ability to have been "elite" in multiple sports.


I have a hard time seeing someone that is downright slow being elite in multiple sports..... though Koepka and Phelps are elite in the sports that they have devoted themselves to.   


That said I am probably biased toward thinking that the "elite athletes" tend to venture into the euphemistically (as per college athletic programs) Olympic sports. 


 

[Phil McDade]

As others have pointed out, being a truly elite athlete in multiple sports is a rare thing (Bo Jackson et al.)


The more interesting question is whether elite athletes in one sport could have been elite athletes in another sport had they pursued that as their passion. As myself and John Kirk and others have suggested, today's golfers are "better" athletes than their peers from 25-40 years ago, and it's not out-of-this-world conjecture that someone like DJ could've been an elite athlete had he chosen a different path. Elite athletes are elite athletes, and I think we under-rate their potential to translate their ability to, for instance, drive a golf ball on a straight line 350 yards, to another sporting skill that would also make them elite.


To cite two examples, Joe Thomas of the Cleveland Browns and Stu Voigt of the Minnesota Vikings were elite athletes by most any measure. They were also elite high school shot putters and discus throwers (Voigt's state high school shot put record stood for more than three decades in Wisconsin; my track coach buddy said Thomas may have had more potential in the shot put than anyone he's seen -- he basically did track and field as a lark). Could they have been Olympic potential? Who knows? But they were elite athletes at an early, developmental level that suggests elite achievement in something other than football.

[corey miller]

Actually it is "out of this world conjecture" to think that being an elite athlete in one sport would make you elite in another especially in golf where it is not clear to me just what skills (other than mental) are transferable to other sports.


I guess you could say "hand/eye" but it would be folly to think a golfer, by virtue of excellent golf play could hit a baseball. We do have the decathlon which is an old way of measuring athleticism.   And just which one of those ten events would DJ outperform?


Nobody is disputing that these guys are not very good athletes and not elite golfers but it is really obnoxious to act as they could be world class/elite in other sports  by looking at what they do with a golf club. 
[size=78%]   [/size]

[Kyle Harris]

Elite athleticism is the ability to achieve virtuoso performance.


In other words: Doing the common (sitting, walking, running, breathing, jumping, etc.) uncommonly well.

Games have rules which limit these abilities to make the game interesting to watch. Consider out-of-bounds in football. Without it, a team would have a marathon runner to take the ball after building a small lead. Ability in a game is not a great metric for athleticism.

[Wayne_Kozun]

That said I am probably biased toward thinking that the "elite athletes" tend to venture into the euphemistically (as per college athletic programs) Olympic sports.

Like golf😀


Wouldn’t elite athletes, assuming they were rational, gravitate to sports that would maximize their career earnings?  Those would likely be baseball or basketball, at least for Americans.

[V. Kmetz]

This entire thread has seen very few posts which aren't ridiculous... have any of you seen an NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL or FIFA player recently...a track and field Olympian, a world class gymnast, or swimmer in the flesh recently?


DJ an elite athlete who chose golf from among a few elite possibilities?! What?! ... he's a lanky, thin guy with a flexible core, that's it... If he even remotely was a top athlete, a uniquely fast runner, a uniquely capable power lifter, a uniquely flexible gymnast...the bullshit promotional schemes and Jim Nantz would never let you forget it...


Brooks Koepka is a fit 190 lber who works out twice a day... he's not Mike Trout or Bryce Harper because he looks big compared to Jordan Spieth or Rickie Fowler...


Kyler Murray has a choice...Dave Winfield had a choice ...Drew Henson had a choice... even Tim Tebow still has a choice. Koepka would much sooner be found at the Budget rental counter as on another major sports court or field.


Honestly, this conversation is as ridiculous as saying John Daly is in the same league as Palmer and Watson because he's a multi-major winner too, but won a PGA, whereas they did not...


cheers  vk

[Peter Pallotta]

I, for one, would not have been an elite athlete in any sport. That's why I play golf.
(Well, that and because I can wear the exact same clothes as I do sitting at the end of a bar).

[jeffwarne]

Forgetting "world class athletes' for a second,(and the direction Jeff and I took it previously)
surely it can be said they are athletes who had choices at a young age, maybe even excelling in youth sports or High School, who chose golf because they could see the writing on the wall, and that they had a particular aptitude for golf.
You don't have to have been able to have played baseball, football or basketball in college to be an "athlete who chose golf".


While there are probably/certainly(Tiger effect) more players who fall into the above category than 40 years ago,
working out twice a day and wearing tight clothes doesn't make you more athletic than Craig Stadler, Corey Pavin or Payne Stewart.

[Ira Fishman]

First, I wholeheartedly endorse Peter's parenthetical.


Second, for an interesting other sport to golf current story, Kyle Williams who is a 5 Time Pro Bowl Player as a Defensive Tackle qualified with his partner for the US Amateur Four Ball Championship next week at Bandon.  Kyle played at 295 pounds (actually a bit on the light side for the position), and he is a legit Scratch player.  He also is one of the nicest guys you ever could have the pleasure of meeting.  He is worth rooting for next week.


Ira

[JMEvensky]

I, for one, would not have been an elite athlete in any sport. That's why I play golf.

(Well, that and because I can wear the exact same clothes as I do sitting at the end of a bar).

Always comes back to the argyle sweaters, doesn't it?

[Peter Pallotta]

 
Some would say that's a poor reason to play golf, but I think it's a pretty good one -- certainly on par with the supposed 'health benefits' of the game.
(I'm not, as I say, an elite athlete.  None of them even wear *cotton* anymore!)

[corey miller]

Sorry Wayne my post should have said elite athletes tend to "not venture" into olympic sports.  That said, with Title IX and other factors many very good athletes are venturing more into the Olympic sports because it is perceived that getting a division 1 scholarship is "maximizing earning potential" for that level of athlete.


Isn't the expected return for a very good athlete that happens to play lacrosse  (getting a D1 scholarship no pro league to speak of) much greater than attempting to play NBA regardless of what the salary structure may be?  Harder to get a scholarship and certainly insanely hard to make big time. 

[John Kirk]

When determining what qualifies as "athleticism", I think it's incorrect to limit it to physical attributes.  People who play games at a high level typically have mental/physical abilities that are hard to quantify.  Things like catching a ball, contorting one's body to avoid contact, to seeing the field of play to anticipate opportunities.

I watched a nice documentary called "In Search of Greatness" this month.  The two primary sources of greatness tapped for this documentary were Wayne Gretzky and Jerry Rice, who discussed their lives and what they felt made them great at their sports.  In particular, Gretzky's story is a revelation.  Even though he was little throughout his career, especially when he played with older players in junior hockey, he dominated by being a great offensive player.  He talked about how much he studied the game, and perhaps most importantly, how his father was smart enough to not overcoach him, to let him figure out how to play.  Steph Curry is a bit like Gretzky, supremely talented with the ball, an outstanding marksman, but not a superior "athlete" in the traditional sense.  In games, at least in the "skill positions", athleticism is also manifested in a player's intellect for game playing, and how well he can translate that intellect into movement.

Being big and fast are the second most important attributes, right behind a burning desire to play the game.

Finally, as an old basketball player, I love reading A.G. Crockett talk about coaching.  Coaches are held in high esteem.

[David_Tepper]

The last 4 US Opens have been won by Dustin Johnson, Brooks Koepka and Gary Woodland. They are big, strong guys who hit the ball a long way and have the strength/power to muscle a wedge 100 yards out of shin deep rough. They also know how to pitch, chip and putt. The future is here.

[Ronald Montesano]

This has nothing to do with golf course architecture.

[jeffwarne]

This has nothing to do with golf course architecture.

It actually has everything to do with architecture.
If indeed bigger stronger athletes are the future in golf, what kind of course/design would be the best to test them-if indeed that is the route governing bodies want to go.
and those designs inevitable always creep down to the average course setup or redesign.


I'm pretty sure few would've guessed the size of the distance gains from 1995-2019, whether from technology, selection of golf by athletes, mindset, training or technique.
and distance has ALWAYS been at the heart of design and architecture, and has always been the hallmark of the greatest players.


The question of course is how much should all of this affect architecture for the average guy, and especially now, that"average guy" comes in all shapes and sizes and one size does not seem to fit all, with 7-8 sets of tees at some courses born out of may topics we discuss here, including how far athletes hit the ball.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's a racist load of crap. I scolded a numbnut just recently because he said the only reason that Korean men don't dominate on the PGA Tour is because they aren't athletic enough. You guys should be ashamed.

[Kalen Braley]

It's a racist load of crap. I scolded a numbnut just recently because he said the only reason that Korean men don't dominate on the PGA Tour is because they aren't athletic enough. You guys should be ashamed.

JK,


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're the first one to bring up race is in this discussion....

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