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jim_lewis

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2019, 09:44:12 PM »
I believe that the professional sport most kin to golf is hockey. Both sports require great balance, eye to hand coordination, and agility. Most hockey players are about the same size as professional golfers. In fact, many hockey players are excellent golfers. I figure that if you can slap a bouncing puck into a corner target the size of a dinner plate while skating at top speed, you probably can hit a golf ball sitting on the ground.


I suspect that many top golfers, if they had taken hockey up at a very young age, could be pretty good hockey players, maybe even professional.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Jim Nugent

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2019, 11:57:30 PM »
I'm pretty much with Jeff Schley on this.  What single bit of evidence do we have that DJ could play college football, at any position?  Same question for Brooks.   

jeffwarne

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2019, 09:35:28 AM »
We've made quite a leap to say they have to play football to validate the original premise of the thread.


But let's play along...
If DJ had chosen football exclusively at age 12, do you seriously think he would weigh 205 pounds (unless he chose to?) or Koepka 200?
Football players change their bodies enormously in High School or at worst in college.
I played sports growing up with Ken Whisenhunt-he weighed 140 pounds as a High School quarternack.
he later played tight end in the NFL(EVERY single one of you "golf deniers" :) would've said he could never play in the NFL had you met him then


Can none of you see that MAYBE some of these golfers would have different sizes and skill sets had they gone a different athletic direction at a younger age?


There never will be any "evidence" because they chose golf.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff Schley

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2019, 09:56:30 AM »
We've made quite a leap to say they have to play football to validate the original premise of the thread.


But let's play along...
If DJ had chosen football exclusively at age 12, do you seriously think he would weigh 205 pounds (unless he chose to?) or Koepka 200?
Football players change their bodies enormously in High School or at worst in college.
I played sports growing up with Ken Whisenhunt-he weighed 140 pounds as a High School quarternack.
he later played tight end in the NFL(EVERY single one of you "golf deniers" :) would've said he could never play in the NFL had you met him then


Can none of you see that MAYBE some of these golfers would have different sizes and skill sets had they gone a different athletic direction at a younger age?


There never will be any "evidence" because they chose golf.
Jeff this isn't a grudge match or argument, but a conversation. 

You are the one who framed it by saying football corner back in 6 months of training to play mid level D1 football. Correct? I just analyzed that from my own perspective. Height can't be taught, nor can speed be improved a great deal.  Strength and muscle can be gained by just about everyone to the point of ones genetic potential.


I'll play along with your premise. If a pro golfer picked another sport when they were in HS, and if they dedicated all their time and focus towards that sport, and if they weren't injured, then yes they could have played another sport possibly in college, and yes they would have chosen unwisely, because we know how it turns out when they focus on golf. Each athlete finds their own preference based on what they enjoy which typically is the sport they are performing the best at.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

jeffwarne

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2019, 10:02:37 AM »




I'll play along with your premise. If a pro golfer picked another sport when they were in HS, and if they dedicated all their time and focus towards that sport, and if they weren't injured, then yes they could have played another sport possibly in college, and yes they would have chosen unwisely, because we know how it turns out when they focus on golf. Each athlete finds their own preference based on what they enjoy which typically is the sport they are performing the best at.


agreed.
I think we can also agree that if you are 5 foot 7 and weigh 145 pounds ,virtually your only choice is golf...
which is very much the way it used to be for the most part.


Whisenhunt is a pretty good golfer so who knows had he focused on that!
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2019, 11:37:12 AM »
I actually think the opposite is true. It's easier for a lot of athletes to play golf very well as a second or third sport. IMO, more non golfer elite athletes could have been elite golfers than the other way around.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Garland Bayley

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2019, 11:41:40 AM »
I actually think the opposite is true. It's easier for a lot of athletes to play golf very well as a second or third sport. IMO, more non golfer elite athletes could have been elite golfers than the other way around.


Ciao

I agree with this. Michael Jordan isn't too bad a golfer. As Michael would let you know, Tiger is a disaster at basketball. ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim Nugent

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2019, 12:00:09 PM »
Washington Redskins lineman George Bayer started golf at 29, and won on the PGA Tour. Including beating Arnie a time or two Kalen. ;)
Important edit: Bayer started professional golf at 29.  He began playing the game much earlier, as a caddie, when he was a kid.

I again ask you guys who think DJ could compete at a real high level in other sports: what physical attributes does he have that might make that possible? 


Kalen Braley

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2019, 12:30:42 PM »
I think a big part of what's missing in this convo is not that there are a few outliers who can excel at multiple sports at elite D1 levels and/or the pros like a Kyle Murray or Bo Jackson or Deon Sanders...

The point is they are in fact unusual and very rare in frequency.  The lack of ability of the other 99.9% who couldn't do this is the real issue at hand in this thread....

SL_Solow

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2019, 01:53:08 PM »
Don't overestimate Michael's golf ability.  When he was with the Bulls he played a lot of golf at a club I know quite well.  There were a lot of days when his assistant was sent to the ATM and very few when he was on the upside.  A nice club player with an inflated view of his abilities.  Add baseball players to hockey players as a group whose skills tend to translate.


As far as the general topic goes, its pretty obvious that the general fitness level of players has gone up.  Golfers always had excellent hand - eye coordination.  But the immeasurable is how they would react in a game where movement is involved.  Dustin and Brooks look like athletes and may be good at other sports.  But the level of play at the Division I and professional levels is extraordinarily high.  Don't confuse Nicklaus' decent play in high school or Watson's private school quarterbacking with those levels.  Neither had the size or speed to move up.  In any event, except for the rare multi-sport athlete, we'll never know.  A few that weren't mentioned include Mike Souchak (golf and football), Dick Groat (baseball and basketball) Gene Conley (baseball and basketball) Wilt Chamberlain (basketball, track and volley ball) Jackie Robinson (baseball, football basketball, and track) and Jim Brown (football, basketball, lacrosse, track and baseball).  In earlier times there was Jim Thorpe.  But despite these examples and the others cited previously, when one considers the large number of people who have competed at the highest levels, the rarity of the talent exhibited by these multi-sport stars is magnified.  It is getting harder with increased specialization.  So I suggest that speculating on which athletes could have excelled at other sports, while fun, is unrealistic.  However, think of some of the NBA players as soccer goalkeepers.

Garland Bayley

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2019, 02:47:40 PM »
...
Important edit: Bayer started professional golf at 29.  He began playing the game much earlier, as a caddie, when he was a kid.
...

Sorry, didn't pay close attention to what I read. Sometimes I'm in just too much of a hurry. Probably hurts my golf scores too.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

jeffwarne

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2019, 03:20:46 PM »
I actually think the opposite is true. It's easier for a lot of athletes to play golf very well as a second or third sport. IMO, more non golfer elite athletes could have been elite golfers than the other way around.


Ciao


definitely true, but their God given prowess can work against them as golf will always require full time dedication while a 6 foot 9 great athlete can play play pretty good college ball with minimal dedication
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2019, 04:18:42 PM »
John Brodie is a good example.  NFL MVP, and a winner on the Senior Tour.  He played at the Cal Club back in the 70s and 80s.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brodie
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jim Nugent

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2019, 04:55:38 PM »
However, think of some of the NBA players as soccer goalkeepers.
They could turn out fantastically.  Actually, think of NBA point guards, spending all their time growing up playing soccer instead of basketball.  Until the best US athletes devote themselves to soccer, though, the US has pretty dim prospects in the sport.  Short some major seismic shift, hard to ever see that happening. 

Kalen Braley

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2019, 05:11:53 PM »
However, think of some of the NBA players as soccer goalkeepers.
They could turn out fantastically.  Actually, think of NBA point guards, spending all their time growing up playing soccer instead of basketball.  Until the best US athletes devote themselves to soccer, though, the US has pretty dim prospects in the sport.  Short some major seismic shift, hard to ever see that happening.


Maybe the MLS needs to step their game up and become a real league, like the NHL, MLB, NBA, NFL which has the vast majority of all the best players, and respective salaries, in the world...

But then again we're talking about a sport that can't even keep an accurate game clock, so maybe that's asking too much!   ;D ;D

Garland Bayley

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2019, 05:27:25 PM »
I have no doubt that the NFL will lose appeal and the MLS will gain it.

I have no doubt that Jeff W would have made more money as a soccer goalie than as a golf professional. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

A.G._Crockett

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2019, 10:21:58 AM »
The top players in EVERY sport get there because they have a particular skill set that is suited to that game.  NFL linemen are athletes who have extraordinary size and strength; whether or not that translates to anything else is an individual matter, of course.  Looking at guys like Justin Thomas and saying that he couldn't play NFL football is equally silly to looking at an NFL lineman and saying that he couldn't play NHL hockey, or be an MLB pitcher.

Many years ago when I was in college, I went to play pickup basketball, and ended up in a game with an All-American OG at my school, who is now in the College Football Hall of Fame.  To my shock, he was just AWFUL; no hand-eye coordination, no shooting skills, nothing.  If you'd seen him play, he would have been the last person in the gym that you would have picked to have an NFL career ahead of him.  But he did because his skill set was suited to that, despite his lack of basketball talent.


Jordan couldn't hit a baseball.  Barkley can't hit a golf ball.  Tiger reputedly can't hoop.  MLB pitchers, at least for the most part, can't hit.  And Justin Thomas can't play strong safety in the NFL.  So what?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Kalen Braley

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2019, 10:30:46 AM »
Agree whole-heartedly on your last post AG.  I guess this is just another side effect of the self-delusion our species is infected with.


For many years I too thought I could have been an elite college kicker because i could make 45 yard fields goals in the 8th grade at least 50% of the time.  But then I realized it was just my buddy holding the ball, no snap, no pressure, no pads or helmet, no timing, no one watching, no game situation... just he and I messing around on the field.  But it sure seemed real back then...

A.G._Crockett

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2019, 06:08:15 PM »
John Brodie is a good example.  NFL MVP, and a winner on the Senior Tour.  He played at the Cal Club back in the 70s and 80s.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brodie
Kevin,


With all due respect, Brodie is NOT a good example; nobody is who can play two sports at the professional level.  Brodie, like Bo Jackson, or Danny Ainge, or a handful of others over the years who played two sports at the highest level professionally, are outliers of the highest magnitude.

I'll even go a step farther.  When you look at baseball, the number of guys in the major leagues that can do a creditable job at more than one position is very, very small.  A guy who can play three or four positions well enough IN THE SAME SPORT is a valuable commodity. 


As another example:  I was a HS basketball coach, and ANY basketball coach at some point deals with the issue of the guards saying the posts aren't getting open, and the posts saying they're open but the guards won't get them the ball.  So every now and then, we would scrimmage for a few minutes with the offensive positions reversed.  The post players would have to bring the ball up with the best defensive guards harassing them every step of the way, and the guards would have to post up while being guarded by the defensive posts.  How long do you think it took to make the point?  And we never had to repeat it.

My point being that only a few athletes even excel in multiple ways in ONE sport, much less find the ability to play two at a professional level.  That top professional golfers aren't good enough (or big enough) to excel at other sports makes them just like everybody else.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mike_Young

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2019, 08:01:49 PM »
AG,
I completely understand what you are saying but at the same time I think golf is like mny sports which as they grow more athletic people come into the sport.  I have never been one who felt Bobby Jones should have been considered on the level of Jack Nicklaus or Tiger Woods because he was in the sport at a time when it was not there for many.  It's all similar to the Jamaican bobsled team thing...IMHO if you take any sport and the top athletes take them up then the sport goes to another level.  rightnow I think we are seeing it in Ultimate Frisbee for example.  My daughter was on a club team and it as mostly guys who ate well, ran, and dorked it up but enjoyed frisbee etc.  I saw them come back from winning the college team nationals and take n a pick up game with 6 guys and a few others from the UGA tennis team...these guys had never played but after one game the champions were blown away...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Garland Bayley

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2019, 11:18:03 AM »
Ultimate frisbee? Really? The domain of unathletic nerds is your example?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pat Burke

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2019, 12:49:22 PM »
I’m not getting in to other sports


But the players today are stronger, bigger, and more powerful


Equipment is much better for bigger players.  Lighter, better balances, and much better balance for larger sized players.


Training is a) better educated and more effective and b) nonjust more accepted, but expected as part of the process of competing and improving. 


Watching guys like Blackmar, John Adams, and other big guys trying to find equipment to fit them was interesting.  Now those guys could go to any company and find a proper set of clubs, not needing. To fit themselves to Ill-suited clubs.


So the professional game is growing, literally.  Data for training and improving ones own athleticism is more easily available, and taken as a whole, the fields are much more athletically trainer than the past.


There have always been some good athletes on tour.  There are far more players athletically prepared now

Mike_Young

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Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #72 on: May 17, 2019, 10:41:01 PM »
Ultimate frisbee? Really? The domain of unathletic nerds is your example?
I think golf was similar when it began... :) :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2019, 12:50:24 PM »
Ultimate frisbee? Really? The domain of unathletic nerds is your example?
I think golf was similar when it began... :) :)

Mike,

That would be lords, not nerds!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: They’re athletes who have chosen to play golf
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2019, 08:56:31 PM »
A.G.:  How about this guy?


Richard Morrow Groat (born November 4, 1930) is a former two-sport athlete best known as a shortstop in Major League Baseball. He played for four National League teams, mainly the Pittsburgh Pirates and St. Louis Cardinals, and was named the league's Most Valuable Player in 1960 after winning the batting title with a .325 average for the champion Pirates. From 1956 to 1962 he teamed with second baseman Bill Mazeroski to give Pittsburgh one of the game's strongest middle infields.[/size][/font]
[/size][/color]
[/size]Also an excellent basketball player, Groat attended Duke University and is a member of the Sigma Chi Fraternity. He was twice an All-American at Duke and was voted as the Helms National Player of the Year in 1952 after averaging 25.2 points per game. He played one season as a guard in the National Basketball Association. In 2011 Groat was inducted into the National College Baseball Hall of Fame, becoming the first man ever inducted into both the college basketball and college baseball halls of fame.[/size]
[/size][/color]
[/size]He is also Brooks Koepka's great uncle.[/color]

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