Trinity Forest is not a good course for a PGA Tour event

[Matt_Cohn]

I'm just being provocative with this title, and I don't necessarily believe it to be true. But I'm wondering if it's actually wrong.

• Despite being 7,500 yards and par 71, the pros are eating it up. In early action, 57 of 78 players are under par, and only 6 of 78 players are more than +1. (Tony Romo will still shoot like 78 though.) Last year's winning score was -23.

• Is there any course on tour where it's more important to hit it far and less important hit it straight?

• Also, as big as the greens are, is there any course on tour where the short game (other than putting) is tested less?

• And without trees, water, or elevation changes, it's hard for TV viewers to tell the holes apart.

[Lou_Duran]

If par is irrelevant, I think the variety the course offers and its faux links style make it an entertaining experience for the viewers if not the pros themselves.  I would like to see the course play like Royal Liverpool did when Tiger won the Open there, but the Nelson's date is not conducive to F & F conditions, especially since TF (reportedly) never got the sand it needed to cap the fairways as intended.

[Randy Thompson]

This is a city course and if their design objectives were focused on creating a PGA Tour event course with a winning score around par, your daily play would suffer for the course being too hard. What is wrong with letting the Pro´s have a birde fest once in a while? They control a lot with course set up and pin placements and maybe they want minus 20 something to win! Are they playing 7500 every day?

[Jason Topp]

I hope they can get more aggressive with set up at some point.  It sounds like weather will make that difficult this year.

[David Wuthrich]

Last time I checked Trinity Forest was a very private club!

[Randy Thompson]

Last time I checked Trinity Forest was a very private club!

Hey David,
I stand corrected but looks like were both wrong

The club members and stakeholders would invest over $60 million to develop the course and facilities and lease the unusable land from the City of Dallas. While the agreement allowed for Trinity Forest to be a private golf club, so it could raise the necessary funds, it stipulated that at least 25% of all play must be public rounds.

[Lou_Duran]

Last time I checked Trinity Forest was a very private club!

It is, by virtue of the high initiation fee and monthly dues, though unaccompanied guest play is allowed, again with a hefty green-fee and mandatory caddie(s).  I haven't looked at the founding documents, but the non-profit partnership that operates the club is required to offer a set percentage of public rounds.  I have heard that charity outings pretty much cover these.


As to the design intent, I have it from a very good source that the Nelson arrived a year earlier than the club wanted it, so the course was not where they wanted it to be last year.  The objective was to hold a significant tournament, if not a major, at least a FedEx event.  I don't know that the organizers were obsessed with preserving par, but I doubt that -20 or lower will be acceptable.


There are at least four courses in the Dallas area with big tournament dreams and two more on the way.  I hope TF gets a break on the weather sooner rather than later so it can play as it was envisioned before the sponsors look elsewhere.  I saw the material on which it was built and it has a lot of rock and clay.  I am told that not enough sand was trucked in to cap the fairways for efficient drainage as planned, so I guess that to achieve the F & F conditions during tournament time, the area will need to experience a near drought.  If they are through making modifications to the course, perhaps the supt. can lay off he water and amendments.
 

[Randy Thompson]

Most of us can agree the top two architect firms of our time are Coore´s & Crenshaw and Renaissance Golf! I am glad we get to watch the pro´s work there way around a modern design of C&C. I am really looking forward to Renaissance redo in Houston and how the pro´s will play it and what they will think of it, ect! I am sure TD will be striving to, "raise the bar!" I also look forward to seeing their capabilities with a non espectacular piece of land and how they will be viewed by the market!

[Don Mahaffey]

The Tour is scared to death of those greens and will never let them get firm enough, or select pin placements challenging enough, to make it hard for Tour pros.
Maybe once they get to know them a little more they’ll push it a bit, but they like birdies a whole lot more than three putts

[Jay Mickle]

Forget par. I would much enjoy seeing someone win with a 4 day total of 216. These guys are good, right?

[Matthew Essig]

The course played soft from the rain. Doesn't matter what course it is... For pros, Soft = Darts

[Peter Pallotta]

The Tour is scared to death of those greens and will never let them get firm enough, or select pin placements challenging enough, to make it hard for Tour pros.
Maybe once they get to know them a little more they’ll push it a bit, but they like birdies a whole lot more than three putts

This brings to mind a question I've often grappled with, ie is it wiser, and indeed more professional, to create work for a client based on what you know *will be* instead of what you hope/believe *should be*?
If you know that the PGA Tour stop is a key reason a course is being built, is designing greens with potential pin placements that you know will never/rarely be used the wisest choice?
Might it have not been, far from cynical actually more professional, to use your talent and imagination and experience to create a set of terrific greens specifically *in the context of* a PGA tour event?
And similarly, if you knew before seeding that you didn't/couldn't sand cap the way you would've wanted, was it a good idea to stick closely to the plan (while hoping/imagining that the course would one day play in a beloved and fashionable F&F condition) or might it have been better to realistically and practically change gears and make new design decisions & tweaks that recognized the fact that the Tour would stop there at a time of year when F&F was an impossibility?
Is it more professional to put your best foot forward even if the resulting work doesn't 'work' or instead to make sure your work 'works' even if you (and your fans) don't think it's one of your best?

[Ken Moum]

Is it more professional to put your best foot forward even if the resulting work doesn't 'work' or instead to make sure your work 'works' even if you (and your fans) don't think it's one of your best?

There are plenty of examples of doing the latter, "Dance with the one that brung ya'." comes to mind. Don't we all (or most) love the wily veteran who can't do most of the things he/she could at the peak of their power but still manage to perform at a top level?


OTOH, when confronted with an old landfill, I wonder how hard it would be to use restraint.

[mike_beene]

Watching the replay I noticed a number of mud balls which would indicate the sand isn't there in some places. I played 5 miles away and never picked up any mud. We are not sandy at all.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Last time I checked Trinity Forest was a very private club!

  If they are through making modifications to the course, perhaps the supt. can lay off he water and amendments.

Lou, I understand that there will be some "adjustments" this summer, BUT trust me when I say, the Superintendent, Kasey Kauff ISNT laying down the water and/or over fertilizing. Everything they do they circulates trying to be fast, firm & brown. They care less about color than any newer club than I have seen. Hes also one of the best zoysia grass growers in the country. They have also installed over 8 miles of drainage in the last 2 years and are mowing today after 2" of rain. On a landfill.


Hes unique, but don't hold that against him.


https://twitter.com/TonyBevolo/status/997983186188718080
https://twitter.com/KaseyKauff/status/996919251318517760

[Matthew Petersen]

This is a city course and if their design objectives were focused on creating a PGA Tour event course with a winning score around par, your daily play would suffer for the course being too hard. What is wrong with letting the Pro´s have a birde fest once in a while? They control a lot with course set up and pin placements and maybe they want minus 20 something to win! Are they playing 7500 every day?

They should get a birdie fest "once in a while"?


In the 2019 season there have been 10 events won at -20 or lower and several others at -18 or -19. The Players at Sawgrass(!) was won at -16.


The real rarity on Tour is when it's not a birdie fest.

[jeffwarne]

a 16 year old shot 61 in a US Open Qualifier....


PGA Tour players have been great their entire lives, and practice and play nearly every day.
In addition, more great athletes are choosing golf at an early age-and working equally hard that by the time they reach the Tour they are incredibly skilled and fearless(especially those who come up via web.com where -24 might get you 3rd place.
Throw in the last 18 years of ProV1, Trackman, better Coaching,better physical and mental training,driver and now iron faces that rebound at impact and optimization and you've got a formula for exponential equipment.


In short these guys are good


The ONLY way for a winning score to be somewhere near par is to dry the greens out to nothing, run them at 13 plus(not 15 like Mike Davis states) tuck the pins, carve par to 70, grow the rough, and tip the tees out.


Interestingly, there are a variety of ways to drive scores higher (Blind shots, greens that run away) that wouldn't impact the average guy as much as a pro but sadly no one has the balls to do that anymore.


It always cracks me up when people say how great it is that golfers use the "same" equipment as pros, and that bifurcation would change that.


Yet the average player would NEVER see, want to , or be allowed to play a course in "somewhere around par winning" tournament condition with their tees and pins,water everywhere(TPC) and the greens struggling for survival.


For those who enjoy seeing higher scores, wouldn't it simply be easier to bifurcate equipment rather EVERY single course being bifurcated for events?

[Matthew Rose]

I am enjoying watching the putting.

[Thomas Dai]

From watching on the TV this seems like a course where they should be made to play with only a handful of clubs and no caddy and no yardage/putting books. And I mean this in a complementary way towards the course.


Indeed maybe this would be a easy way to bifurcate the game ... with the Pros having less things to help them than amateurs?


Atb

[Ben Stephens]

a 16 year old shot 61 in a US Open Qualifier....


PGA Tour players have been great their entire lives, and practice and play nearly every day.
In addition, more great athletes are choosing golf at an early age-and working equally hard that by the time they reach the Tour they are incredibly skilled and fearless(especially those who come up via web.com where -24 might get you 3rd place.
Throw in the last 18 years of ProV1, Trackman, better Coaching,better physical and mental training,driver and now iron faces that rebound at impact and optimization and you've got a formula for exponential equipment.


In short these guys are good


The ONLY way for a winning score to be somewhere near par is to dry the greens out to nothing, run them at 13 plus(not 15 like Mike Davis states) tuck the pins, carve par to 70, grow the rough, and tip the tees out.


Interestingly, there are a variety of ways to drive scores higher (Blind shots, greens that run away) that wouldn't impact the average guy as much as a pro but sadly no one has the balls to do that anymore.


It always cracks me up when people say how great it is that golfers use the "same" equipment as pros, and that bifurcation would change that.


Yet the average player would NEVER see, want to , or be allowed to play a course in "somewhere around par winning" tournament condition with their tees and pins,water everywhere(TPC) and the greens struggling for survival.


For those who enjoy seeing higher scores, wouldn't it simply be easier to bifurcate equipment rather EVERY single course being bifurcated for events?

Jeff - Add in Biomechanics. Last year I went to JCB on a tour of the course - they employ students who are studying biomechanics and they have a facility to monitor each player's biomechanics and how they can be improve. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Sorry, I already play the course with only my 5 wood. If the pros use any fewer clubs Tony Romo may have a chance. Speculating that he has the strongest arm in the field. Let golfers be golfers.

[Lou_Duran]

Tony- I wasn't implying that Kasey was applying water and chemicals for color.  I've played the course three times over the two years it has been opened and what struck me the most is the amount of construction and "improvements" already being made each time I was there.  I am unaware that you can totally rebuild a new bunker, put in more drainage, and lay down sod without adding water and fertilizer.  All I can tell you is that the first time we played the course, it was fairly F & F, especially the greens, as one would expect a new course to be.  The second time it was softer, but still had some of the bounciness around the green complexes.  The third time it played like other park land courses in Dallas.


I was there yesterday afternoon and the course was very green, but the zoysia seemed to be relatively firm on the feet, but not so much on the roll of the ball.  We saw some shots to the greens that didn't roll out as expected, and as Mike noted, they were picking up mud on the balls.


Having said all this, the staff did a wonderful job of getting the course in good playing condition.  But at the same time, I played in the morning 35 miles north with similar rain totals and the carts were allowed off the paths.  My fear is not the ability of the supt. and his staff, but with the preparation of the site vis-a-vis the materials used in the playing corridors, how the clay cap over the landfill might affect the drainage, and the schedule of the event during the rainy part of the year.  I like the architectural aspects and looks of the golf course a lot.  I just wish it could play more like a proper links, at least during the tournament.     

[Steve Lang]

   from our experience at the WCC's old TPC course PGA event, and our present Champions event, we've always been told that the PGA agronomists come check out and advise and help push course prep, many months out ... visits and time increasing as the event date grows near, and there's some cost sharing on improvements.


whatever the exact truth, its always interesting to play just before and just after the event, the greens are crazy pure and things much more treacherous... more than normal.  one could get used to it, but it seems unsustainable...  once a year for big events and some other times for qualifiers and club championships is fine


McCarron beat the other older guys last week with -17...  the last pga event in 2002 VJ won at -22 ...


someone is always going to be hot, there's so many good players, who cares what the score is, let the best man or woman win!


with that said, it always interesting to see how tv coverage portrays the course, Trinity Forest doesn't look great to me on tv, but will have to see it on the ground or more aerial shots to get it... 

[mike_beene]

I went out there this afternoon and was surprised now well the course handled the hard rain last night. One of the tunnels to the range flooded. Several people slid down hills, but the fairways were almost dry. First time I have seen the course with cloud cover. Felt like Scotland in May with the windflowers and cool temps.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:


Trinity Forest has more greens that run away from the line of play (or at least a portion of them that runs away) than any new course I have seen in decades. And that’s despite the fact it’s on a fairly level piece of ground!