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Shaper

Montego Bay - White Witch
« on: October 25, 2003, 07:41:54 PM »
Has anyone been down to Montego Bay, Jamaica and played the Rose Hall White Witch course? If so, please comment on it.
Thank You,
MK

Mike Nuzzo

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Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2003, 08:24:33 PM »
only pictures......     ;D

Go Yanks!
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

cary lichtenstein

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Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2003, 10:42:00 PM »
Mike:

I was there last December for 4 days. The golf course is terrific :). 16 holes have views of the ocean. It is really a mountain course, with lots of elevated tees, ravines, built on whar appears to be a pure rock base with lots of rock outcroppings.

Van Hagge did a masterful job. The Ritz owns the property, and everything in the hotel, dining, and caddy program are first class.

Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2003, 10:22:50 AM »
The reliance on mounding hurt the course, in my opinion. The site was similar to that of the Prince course, with a jungle setting, minus the actually oceanside holes.

Having played the other von Hagge course next door - Cinnamon Hill - I wondered whether the bigger budget meant they felt they had to "deliver" more. The course at Cinnamon Hill (Wyndham) is far superior in my mind. It balances the oceanfront and jungle terrain well, while making the hole that climb on the back nine solid. As opposed to simply driving up the hillside (mountainside?).


A sampling of a few holes from each.

Cinnamon Hill


Fifth hole


Sixth hole


14th Hole


16th Hole


17th Hole


White Witch


First hole


10th hole


15th hole


17th hole

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2003, 10:31:29 AM »
Billy the Goat,

How do you reconcile your interpretation of the golf course, based on pictures you've seen, with Quassi's actual experience of seeing and playing the golf course ?

If the site is hilly, then any and every architect would have to produce a golf course on hilly terrain.

Ben Dewar,

Forgeting about the look of both courses, how did each course play ?

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2003, 11:17:27 AM »
Pat,

Cinnamon Hill is slightly shorter, but no less demanding. The balance on uphill holes is a welcome respite with dramatic downhill ones was well-conceived. There is one awkward point on the front nine, where you are left with a cart ride from the fourth and fifth hole, but otherwise the routing works well. The wind is prevalent and the holes almost always there is a way to run the shot into the green.
The back nine leaves the ocean and goes up into the mountain, which creates a very different experience. Holes 11-13 all climb uphill, without seeming extreme (Billy goat). From 14 in, the holes play downhill, which leaves it a little unbalanced - albeit gorgeous - coming in. However, the holes are all pretty good.
The 14th is the most challenging driving hole on the course and for a long par four, gives a few options to get to a massive green.
The 15th is essentially a drop-shot par three.
The 16th is a great risk-reward par four, downhill 349 yards, with a very small margin for error if you attempt to drive the green.
The 17th is a strong par four, that benefits those who can work the ball from left-to-right and use the slope to gain distance.
The finisher is another risk/reward hole, a 502-yard par five, with the approach having to carry a ravine.

Lots of interesting strategy, if you are interested in more in-depth, email me.

Regarding White Witch, the course is a stunner without boasting the oceanfront property that Cinnamon Hill has. It was clearly designed for the resort guest, to take full advantage of the views, which Quassi alluded to.
The mounding does affect playability (see the photo of the first) as it either rewarded the bad shot by kicking it back in play, or kills the slightly worse shot by kicking it into the jungle. Perhaps this was to combat the severe land on either side of each hole, but it left me wanting.
As exposed if not more to the wind than CH, the course has more extreme green complexes, which combined with the jungle surroundings, does not lend to much interest.
The severity of the land dictated the cart rides between holes, but the eagerness to play downhill holes did as well. The gaps hurt the flow of the routing, but provide lots of great pictures.

Again, since they were both done by the same architect (or company) and literally touch at one point, it is a worth comparison. The White Witch is on a slightly more difficult property, but I wondered whether the feeling of upstaging the previous design was an issue. The budget far exceeded CH, but the additions of more severe containment mounding and lots of bunkers, didn't accomplish anything greater.

Shaper

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2003, 01:06:30 PM »
Ben,

     I was able to play "White Witch" just before and then after the actual opening in 2000. At that time the first hole (as labeled in the pics you posted), was number 10 and #10 was #1, yardage markers and all. I am wondering why they would have flip-flopped it (again) back to the original hole routing. ....just curious.

Michael Kelly

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2003, 02:08:40 PM »
Michael,
I was vaguely aware of the switch. I would imagine that it was because of the sheer difficulty of the current ninth and tenth. Starting on the current first hole is much easier and the current finisher is far easier.

Nine (current) is a real beast of a hole, with one of the tougher greens I have seen.

Combine that with the fact they have made the 17th (current) their signature hole, I am sure they would rather have the suspense build over the more exciting nine holes.

Whether it makes for a better course, I cannot be certain. Probably provides a little more diversity for the closing stretch.

What do you prefer, clearly you spent some time on site. What are your thoughts on the property and the final outcome?

cary lichtenstein

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Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2003, 02:29:17 PM »
White Witch: Frankly I was quite surprised that Von Hagge was able to build a golf course of the quality he did on such severe terrain and make it work.

I did not play the other course, but was happy to play the White Witch for 4 days. You really get to know a course better that way.

Often times I have changed my opinion of a course after playing for several days. Not this one.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Shaper

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2003, 05:49:12 PM »
Ben,

     I agree with you concerning the switch back to the original routing. #9 is certainly a beast. I had a fairly good time with it though, being left handed.

I did all of the finish shaping at White Witch from tee to green. Changed much in the rough shaping (removed some of the way too many mounds). All greens construction was mine from near start to finish including grassing and grow-in. #15 and #18 were the most difficult to complete. Rebuilt no less than 4 times each after major rain damage.
I'd like to ask if you don't mind, when playing #15 did you elect to go left up the fairway or straight at the green over the water? And, if you went left up the fairway, how was your next shot into the green? Did you have any difficulty with the way the green sits in there?

I was very happy to see #17 as the signature hole. That green was my baby, and actually, the easiest one I built there. Tell me Ben, if you remember it, #4 right and #6 left, the rock areas, how did the landscaping look through there?
We had a terrible time in those areas. Weeks upon weeks hosing them off everyday to get down to clean rock. Did they let the weeds take over? And if you spent any time at the putting green area let me know your thoughts. VonHagge gave me a free hand in the design/build.

By the way, did you see a stray cow or two running around? I hope they are all gone. I would just finish a green surface, plant it then return the next morning to find a dozen or so cows in the middle of it. I could not count the hours I spent on a ATV roping cows.

I'm very happy with the results of White Witch from all aspects.
Thanks,
Michael Kelly
 

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2003, 07:44:30 PM »
Michael,
I hope you didn't misunderstand my comments; nine was my favourite green.

Thankfully did not have to face the shot from the left. It would seem harder than being in the bunkers or rough on the right. The approach is punishing, but I think it draws a great distinction between the two routes. If it was an easier approach, I would imagine the attempts for the right route would drop.

Here are some more photos. The rocks on six are less pronounced than on four. I hope my photo of four captures that somewhat. The fourth looks good.

Did you have anything to do with Cinnamon Hill (Three Palms)?

Why was the decision to incorporate so many mounds made? It seemed like such a departure from the style next door.

Lastly, no cows, but I can sympathize with your trials during the rain. It does pour, doesn't it?

How Montego Bay flies under the radar as a golf destination is bewildering. Three great, different courses comparable to the best three you could find in Hawaii, at a fraction of the distance.




Two

Three

Four

Five

The mighty ninth

cary lichtenstein

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Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2003, 08:16:04 PM »
Michael:

Bravo! You did a brilliant job :) :)

To answer your question regarding #15-3 of went left off the tee, one went for the green

Those of us who went left had no trouble with the green.

The rock areas grew in like they were there for 1000 years.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2003, 09:19:17 AM »
Michael,

I spent quite a bit of time speaking with Rick Baril this morning whom was the architect for the von Hagge organization on both courses.  You might recall Rick is a long time partner of Roberts.  Rick, whom spent a lot of time on the project, remembers you coming in at the end of the job when they started planting.  Brad Dupuis, whom I worked with during my time at von Hagge, did all of the shaping according to Rick.  I did not see his name mentioned in your posts.  Furthermore, Rick would not give a shaper, lets see how you put it, "free reign in the design/build".  I know that was not the practice when i was there as well.  Can you clarify your role.

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2003, 11:53:16 AM »
Michael,

I apologize, it was pointed out to me that you mentioned free reign in design/build of the practice putting green, and not the entire course.  Again, I think proper credit needs to be given to Brad who basically shaped the entire course from start to finish.  Probably for everyone on here they care little for who gets credit and rightfully want to focus on the final product, but I was some what taken back by your posts which left me with the impression that you put the shape to the place.

Shaper

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2003, 01:18:16 PM »
Hi Kelly B M,

I arrived on the White Witch project in late May,1999 and spent more than a year there. Certainly it did not take more than a year to grass the course. When I arrived, there were 6 complete holes without drainage or irrigation and the rough shaping (Brad) of the entire course was no where near complete. I did in fact, do all of the finish shaping at the course and was directed to change many rough shaping features by Wes Russell (owner rep.) after Brad left in September of 1999. During Brads time there I worked many hours along side him on the finish dozer as he did his rough shaping. He knows it, I know it, and everyone should know it.
As a matter of fact, when Brad was off site, which was often in the end and do to a major dispute concerning Brad between the Construction Contractor and the Architect, I did perform much of the work he was hired to do. None of the dispute I might add, was any of Brads fault. It was always a heated battle between the contracor/architect. He is a very good rough shaper and that is what he was hired to do. I did in fact re-shape and finish all green cores and their surrounds, finished all tees, bunkers and fairways because Brad  did not feel comfortable with the finish equipment. I did in fact, complete all greens fine finishing with the Sand Pro, grassed them out along with the rest of the entire course. Rick knows this full well as he spent many hours with me on the greens. Concerning my statement "free hand in design/build of the practice area", it is in fact true. Rick and Wes allowed me to "do my thing" in that area and I did. Rick made a sight visit sometime later, asked me to make one small change to the right front portion of the green and I did. He was pleased and approved the site.

There are many things Kelly, that only Brad and I know concerning White Witch. We spent many long hours alone there on the course making decisions only we could make (concerning the dispute), in hopes that everything we did would turn out for the betterment of the course, and it did.
Certainly I give Brad credit for all the hard work he did, and I was always on his side. It is a terrible shame the way Brad was treated by the contractor. I only hope he has forgotten those bad times.

Michael Kelly


         

Rick Baril

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2003, 02:39:40 PM »
Gee, this is an interesting discussion.  First, let me apologize since this is my first foray into this discussion group and I don’t fully understand protocol or etiquette –but there must be some interest in the truth, otherwise what’s the point?  

There is certainly room for debate about fine shaping and rough shaping – where one end and the other begins?  What is true concerning the “shaping” at White Witch is Brad Dupuis accomplished 98% of it – this means he took our drawings and instructions and made them a reality.  He did an exceptional job as usual (under adverse circumstances as alluded to).  This is why Brad continues to shape our projects and we are presently working in Mexico with him.

Michael, your comment, “I was very happy to see #17 as the signature hole. That green was my baby, and actually, the easiest one I built there.”  - is a grossly inaccurate statement.   First of all #1, #3, #4, #5, #13 and #14 were all easier greens to build.  Green #17 was controversial and took several visits with Brad to resolve and complete – but then, you wouldn’t know this.

“I did all of the finish shaping at White Witch from tee to green.” Michael, this is pure fantasy.  

During the floating and finishing "after the shaping" you were instructed to “soften” transitions for ease of maintenance – as with any finish operation.  This is complete departure from your claim, “Changed much in the rough shaping…”

I could go on and on – but what’s the point?  The point is Michael, you have a grossly over-inflated opinion of your role in the creation of the WW.  You imply that you were responsible for creating the features and, and even entire golf holes.  You also imply you were able to save Brad from embarrassment.  This is a complete disservice to Brad who is a consciences worker and talented shaper.

“VonHagge gave me a free hand in the design/build.”  Admittedly, we gave you some latitude to “shape” the putting green – you should be proud of the putting green  - which you did shape – even if it wasn't “free hand”.

I expect we’ll soon hear from Wes Russell, who informed me (and I didn't know previously) that the contractor actually threw you off the job.  I wondered where you went!  I guess this explains it.


Now to address some of the previous comments and questions:
•   #15 didn’t get built as we would have liked – we wanted to expand the left fairway but, at the time, there was a communal road in the way.  The 15th green was rebuilt last year to eliminate some slope and soften a transition.  It is better but still not a source of pride.  
•    “Bigger budget” did not cause us to deliver more on the WW.  Cinnamon Hill was an “afterthought”.  The decision to update CH did not occur until we were finishing the White Witch.  Wes Russell was instrumental in convincing the client to undertake the renovation.  Part of the driving force was to create a condominium parcel near the water.  
•   Topography drove the routing of WW, more than could be fathomed.
•   Flip the nines – relatively long story – essentially Ritz lobbied to do this.and eventually tipped the scale.  With the new back tee at (present day) #18 – the decision makes sense.
•   #9 (present day) green is too steep, over much of the putting surface.  Less than 50% is usable – it works today because there isn’t too much traffic.
•   Actually #9 (present) is about 30 yards shorter than originally designed and #18 is about 20 yards shorter.

Kelly is interested in the WW because he started the design process.  When he left our office, I inherited it.  Sorry you missed the opportunity Kelly.  As you know, the client was extraordinary and the other team members he compiled was exceptional.  The entire experience was truly memorable.

Now, I have to get back to some substantive work - but I'll check back occasionally.


les_claytor

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2003, 08:18:14 PM »
The course looks quite different in the photos than it does from the road!  Congrats to all that had a hand in the creation!   ;)

Anyway, I was really chimming in to hear if anyone had any funny stories or experiences in building a course in Jamaica.  It's really quite a enjoyable and interesting island when experienced with Jamaicans.  I'm sure there are some funny stories of working with Jamaican labor.  Also, any anectdotes of soil / rock conditions, drainage, grass types and sources, etc. would be interesting.

Actually, I know of some great bermuda growing near a secluded beach in JA at tee height that I would like to smuggle back to see if I can start a test plot.

No Problem Mahn !

Shaper

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2003, 09:09:16 PM »
Rick Baril,

           I don't know why a man such as you, a man who commands the respect that you do in the business, and in life, would make such a crude and totally unethical statement as the one you made concerning me, or any man for that matter, as being thrown off a job. Professionally, there is no excuse for it, no matter what frame of mind.

           I have never, ever been thrown off a job in my entire career by anyone, anywhere, and I wholeheartedly resent what you have done here. I remained at WW long after it was complete and long into the soft opening. How is it possible for a man to be thrown off a project that had been long since complete?  I honestly feel your attempt to make this post confrontational. As for that, I want no part of it. However, I will make another post concerning facts you have eluded concerning WW. And with facts that only Brad and I know as to work done in between your site visits.

Thank You,
Michael Kelly

Gregori

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2003, 10:11:44 AM »
Interesting discussion you guys are having, but a little on the heated side... The course is very nice, period. As far as I am concerned, we, the contractor for the course, should be getting the credit for this marvel, along with Rick Baril and Wes Russel 's dedication and involvement.

Brad and Mike's participation were certainly appreciated, but relatively of less critical importance compared to the overall challenges that our construction operation had to overcome to build this course: dealing with a very difficult terrain, inexperienced local labor, dealing with local unions, importing everything necessary for the construction, etc... By the way, we also built the Cinnamon course for the Wyndham next door with Rick and Wes, which is also an incredibly beautiful course.

Ben, the pictures you are posting are very nice. I am interested in getting those shots...

Cool runnings, mon !!

Rick Baril

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2003, 02:38:25 PM »
Michael,

You’re right, I should have checked with Gregori before repeating hearsay i.e.  “…the contractor actually threw you off the job.”    I’ve since learned they “let you go” because, “we didn’t have any work for him” (I certainly hope I quoted this accurately.)  I hate sticking my foot in my mouth like that. Michael, I truly apologize.

As for the other comments, they are the truth and not intended to be confrontational.  Brad Dupuis deserves full credit for “shaping” i.e. creating all the features.  Gregori graciously agreed to our request to hire Brad to shape the golf course, which he did.  I am sorry if this is painful for you.  

PS – re: your previous question about the rocks.  We were there last month.  This is why I can tell you, they haven’t been successful keeping nature from overtaking the rocks. Many of them are receding back into the undergrowth – which is tragic.  

Gregori,
Well said - CL!  Two points:  
1.   After working with other French companies for so many years, I know the French are great diplomats but I was also under the impression you liked controversy.
2.   I thought we worked together on “Three Palms” or was that “The Course Formerly Known As Three Palms”?
(Sorry CL, couldn’t resist.)
 

Les,
There are lots of interesting stories:

•   We originally thought we could build the course in the valleys.  We found out this wasn’t possible, when we were finally able to get into some of the valleys.  Consequently, we extensively used the ridges (turning 10’s of millions of dollars of potential real estate lots into a few million dollars – this is kind of a joke).  I remember the client’s project manager haemorrhaging when we moved the 13th green to the point of the ridge, effectively laying claim to “a few million dollars” of potential home sites.  However, it would not have been possible to build the course without using the ridges.  It always surprises me that no one acknowledges the fact that alot of the golf is located on ridges, which is an important factor in the visual impact of the course and uncommon for most golf courses.
•   We started WW with a marginal topography map and dubious weather data.  We really had to “find” where the golf could work – and then, make it work.  Gregori really was quite “adventurous” in this regard and managed all the unknowns, including drainage and engineering issues, rather handily.  (The only puzzling thing is the 18th fairway, which apparently hasn’t found its final resting place yet.)
•   The rock blasting crew was a local band that, as near as we could tell, used diesel fuel and fertilizer as the explosive and they hauled it around in the trunk of an old Mercedes.  (this may not be exactly right – but it was fun thinking of them in this way) Wes affectionately called their methods, “The Timothy McVeigh Special” – great description.   The supervisor, as I remember, only had a few fingers left – which was disconcerting.  Let’s just say, the operation probably wouldn’t have been OSHA compliant.
•   There are dozens of other “interesting” stories but I don’t believe the statute of limitations has run out, and divulging some these may put “someone” (insert Wes’ name here) in peril.  

Regards,

Rick

Rick Baril

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2003, 02:59:49 PM »
PS - I was looking through the pictures again.  If you look at the the picture of #17 - to the right you will see #13 green, referred to in the previous message.  

As you can probably see, this green occupies valuable real estate with commanding views.  

Question:  Would you rather have your house on this point, or the 13th green?  

Answer:  Let's see, are we talking about my house or someone elses? :)

RJ_Daley

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Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2003, 03:17:07 PM »
Quote
The rock blasting crew was a local band that, as near as we could tell, used diesel fuel and fertilizer as the explosive and they hauled it around in the trunk of an old Mercedes.  (this may not be exactly right – but it was fun thinking of them in this way) Wes affectionately called their methods, “The Timothy McVeigh Special” – great description.  The supervisor, as I remember, only had a few fingers left – which was disconcerting.  Let’s just say, the operation probably wouldn’t have been OSHA compliant.

It is called ANFO bomb and is perfectly safe to ride around with, mixed or unmixed.  It takes a low ordinance explosive to set off the high ordinance mixture of the ammonium nitrate and fuel oil.  I my part of the world we call that a "New Year's Gang special" and farmers regularly used to to blow stumps as encourged by the various fed agencies that used to offer the farmers and foresters guides on how to mix them up.

I'm not sure we have a winner by TKO yet in the "happy hour" match above... :-\ ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

NBaugh

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2003, 03:35:01 PM »
Hello All,
I am also a member of the Gregori International family and just wanted to put my two cents in.

With regards to Les' comment, as a Jamaican myself, let me tell you.....you had to be there.
The construction of both courses was quite a task, and many of the funny stories that we now have, did not seem quite so funny then, but we are very proud of the results.

From trucks loaded with sand going too close to electrical wires and the driver almost electrocuting himself, to the Friday cow roastings (including the brain and balls) by the workers on the site who could manage to catch one, it was an experience that I will not soon forget.

Kudos to the labourers who will most likley never post here. As Christophe suggested, it took a lot of training to get them up to the task, but they were ready. Of special mention is Delroy Tennant aka Bugs (as in bunny because of his teeth), always willing to crawl down a dark drainage pipe no matter what might lurk there - and always a member of the Gregori family.

Kudos to Mr. Martin Markides, to Mr. Daniel Arias and to Mr. Xavier Gregori for pulling it all together.

Respect Due! in true Jamaican fashion.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2003, 06:02:06 PM »
I would love to hear more about the valleys/ridges.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Rick Baril

Re:Montego Bay - White Witch
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2003, 09:01:49 AM »
Oh mon!

I just want to state, emphatically and for the record, I didn't say anything about any "cow roasting" incidents. :o

Oh, precious and ever powerful Witch of Whiteness, have mercy on his poor soul.  Forgive the nameless one, his transgression and have mercy on those that would break the code of silence.