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Mark_Fine

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Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« on: October 25, 2003, 10:27:45 AM »
Back in the Golden Age of design, architects at that time assumed the work in the years ahead would be more daring and exciting then what they themselves had accomplished in the 20's and 30's.   Unfortunately, a depression and a little war derailed things.  We now hear a lot of talk about getting golf architecture back on track.  However, is that all the "modern" architects are doing, getting things back on track?  Have any of them really strived ahead and if so, what are the distinguishing aspects of their designs that they are doing different and/or better than the dead guys?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2003, 10:30:26 AM by Mark_Fine »

T_MacWood

Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2003, 10:45:38 AM »
Are you certain the architects of that time assumed future designs would be more daring and exciting?

Brian Phillips

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2003, 10:48:56 AM »
Mark,

I will always remember what Jeff Brauer said to one day when I said that architecture goes around in circles.  He said it doesn't go around in circles but goes around similar to a DNA spiral.

It comes around back to the same period but on a more improved plane slight higher than the last time it came round to that era.

I think drainage ideas and turf ideas are better than they used to be.  Confidence to move earth when needed can also be seen as positive thing.

We talk about minimalist design a lot on this site.  But even the Doaks and Brauers of this era are probably moving more earth than many of the dead architects ever did.  

They are moving it so well that it can be compared with the old guys and many here (including myself) probably wouldn't be able to see where or how they shifted the earth on a finished site..

So that is three things that modern architects that we like are doing well...or even better than the old guys.

drainage, turf (grass selection) and earthshifting.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

A_Clay_Man

Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2003, 11:00:50 AM »
As with all great improvements there is a building on the shoulders aspect.

Firstly, If you agree that the modern trend deviated from improving on aspects that makes this game so damn interesting, than one can assume there needs to be a retracement before there can be advancement.

In discussing Doak's new one at TT, Don Mahaffey made the comment that since the future is unknowable, Herr Doak did all he could to defend the course at greens end. There by making somewhat sure obsolecence will be avoided temporarily, if not permanently.




Don_Mahaffey

Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2003, 11:38:27 AM »
Adam,
Only TD could say if he tried to "defend par" with tough green complexes that require a deft short game to score well. But, it seems to me that the only way to defend a course against the improving equipment so that it can be a "tournament course" and still playable for the average Joe is to design tough green complexes. Who knows how far the best players will be hitting the ball in the near future except to say we know the average guy will probably not be hitting it much farther then he does now. I just don't think we can grow the game designing longer golf courses that take more money to build and operate, and more time to play. Without an increase in the number of people playing the game how many new courses will be built? If we want to grow the game it seems to me we need to keep those who pay the bills in mind. The best 5% of the players are the guys who hit the ball a mile, but they are not the players who pay the bills. Designing courses that address the needs of the many and yet can still be a venue for the cream seems to be the challenge of the future.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2003, 11:39:58 AM »
Tom,
No I'm not sure but from what I'm read over the years, I think many believed that golf course design would be taken to "another level" and therefore be more bold, more interesting, and possibly more daring.  

Brian,
Good points but I'm not sure any of them are "earth shattering" - no pun intended.  

Working on tough sites (thanks to modern technology) might be the biggest advancement allowing courses to be build that otherwise might never have happened.  

A Clay Man,
I have not yet seen TT, but what is unique about the greens compared for example to some of the wild contours Tillinghast might have designed in his greens in the 20's?

Mark


ian

Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2003, 11:45:43 AM »
Don,

"If we want to grow the game it seems to me we need to keep those who pay the bills in mind. The best 5% of the players are the guys who hit the ball a mile, but they are not the players who pay the bills"

One of the best quotes I have seen in recent times about technology and design. With you permission I would like to use that.

Ian


Mark,

I think it is often hard to see someone who is pushing the limits while they are building them; yet it becomes easier to judge them with a little hindsight. We all can look back at Dye's early work as a push to better things, and his TPC era work as another push to the design framework. I think time will treat the CC's, Doak, and a few particular architects very well. The one that may be admired more in the future is Stranz. Great work is often extremely controversial in its inception, but over time the work seems to stand up better with acceptance of a bold approach. The Tabacco Road may be admired an awful lot more 10 to 20 years. Just a thought.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2003, 11:58:39 AM »
Mark- There's nothing "new" at TT and the simplicity is whats refreshing. Thats why I believe we are seeing the retracement, so we can improve from that level on a different road than the mass marketing housing lined era took us down.


Mark_Fine

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2003, 01:50:52 PM »
Ian,
I'm been a fan of Strantz and Tobacco Road, etc. from day one!  
Mark

Adam,
What do you see as the next level of "improvement"?
Mark

A_Clay_Man

Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2003, 02:16:32 PM »
Mark- Thats a hard one for me. I'm not that close to any cutting edge, but I see value in the simpler, option filled approach, which seems like a retracement or as in many arts, a return to "classical" values. And as with painting, the technical expertise is astounding and should lead in the fututre to whatever that improvement will be.

I have a notion it should/could/will come from someone like a Tom Fazio, whose brush strokes are flawless, but in past works hav'nt quite completely found the right path of intellectually stimulating the golfer, beyond the visuals.

It's anybodies guess where it will come from, or how, or who but for now, I am happy seeing the appreciation for the "art" return and will have to seriously think if there is anywhere to go and what direction that might be.


Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2003, 02:32:54 PM »
Mark,

You make a whopper of an assumption - worthy of burger king - that we need to get back on track, IHMO.  

I also wonder if Tillie and Ross, et. al may not have looked at RTJ's work in the early 50's, and his ability to create, for examples, water holes on virtually any course (previously limited to a few choice existing sites like CP) or even courses in hostile climates as daring and exciting?  Actually, I think they would.

I think they would also have approved of the earthmoving, when necessary and RTJ's big bold greens and bunkers, even if theirs were pretty darn good, too.  

Today, architecture is going a lot of different directions, from minimal to Strantz, retro 30's to retro 50's, etc.  Hell, wouldn't at least one of those styles and many select courses be moving architecture forward, or do you simply condemn most of whats done after 1930? :o ;) ???

(Not trying to be arugmentative, and having trouble deciding on a smiley face,... ::))
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2003, 02:59:32 PM »
Mark:  It would take a very very big ego for someone to believe they are taking golf architecture to a new and higher level.  I'm sure some architects think they are doing just that, but I'm not sure any panel of critics would agree.

We are trying to build courses at the highest level, but to say that we're going to surpass anything that has come before would be pretty stupid.  I have too much respect for what has come before.

In the end, it still comes down to making the most of the land you've got.  If someone wants to try and experiment with "new and different," let them do it on a flat piece of ground with few redeeming features.  I guess we could have done that at Texas Tech, but I stuck to the notion that we would just try to build something fun, and a bit different from other "created" modern projects.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2003, 04:22:13 PM »
Guys,
I have no preconceived ideas here.  I was simply asking the question and seeing what people had to say.  
Mark

Mark_Fine

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2003, 04:49:14 PM »
Maybe a better question would be - Is there a next level?

SPDB

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2003, 05:06:08 PM »
Mark,
I agree with what Jeff said, with the exception that I think accepting your question doesn't involve a whopper of an assumption, but rather a series of them, with a value judgment or two thrown in for good measure. I, too, don't mean to be argumentative or critical.

In fact, I'm not even sure where to begin.

For starters, I think that anybody who has an awareness of technology probably thinks that those toiling in similar occupations in the future may do more "daring" things. Exciting, however, may be a value judgment (unless of course you mean the thrill of building, rather than the finished product).

Secondly, a necessary consequence of accepting the argument that modern architects are getting things back on track is conceding that they were off-track for a certain period, and not just from the perspective of the finished product, but from how they were being designed.

I'm just not sure i accept any of your questions. I think golf architects today have the same objective as golf architects of the classic age, that is building the best course that technology and their own personal creative limitations will allow. Whether the result is on this level or the next is a matter of opinion.

Sandman

Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2003, 05:32:58 PM »
Ian,

Strantz also designed a fine course just a short distance from Tobacco Road called TOT Hill Farm.  Check it out sometime, if you are a fan of Strantz then I think that you like this course also.  Ever hear of Kelly Moran?  Have heard that he is also doing some interesting and bold work.

Steve Lang

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2003, 06:24:41 PM »
 ;D

I really hate the term "take it to a new level," probably one of the most destructive concepts to ruin golf swings.. like IB Finch to name one pga example..  I would hate to see its siren's call wreck those gca's travelling by to their own tune, more likely such allure will wreak havoc upon those without path or seeking to respond to "the latest trend" like 8000 yd courses ..

I appreciate that gca is an artistic and creative endeavor wtih many practical problems to solve along the way from conception to first play and over a long haul life-cycle if its good gca.. but it has its mileposts and ultimate end points that must be accomplished to actually build something on budget, to schedule.

So what is the next level?  Several ask, but i think its an illusion, undefinable, unnecessary context.  Does NGLA truly have a next level?  ANGC doesn't seem to with addition of new tees and rough!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2003, 06:42:28 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

SteveTL

Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2003, 08:15:52 PM »
The recent golf boom coincided with a real estate boom - one which made compromises between golf and real estate more a rule than  an exception.  Many of the "dead guys" didn't have this constraint.

The real estate golf course has been a corridor-driven monster.  It has been a neat trick to see architect after architect try to deliver "signature" holes within a 300', 350', or if very fortunate at 400' corridor.  Obvious limitations exist with this concept of design, and many marginal architects have made a great living as "signature" names to market their community and add perceived value to their real estate offerings.

Hopefully, the "next level" will be to address this "necessary evil" of real estate driven golf in a new way.  I see developers beginning to understand that marching ribbons of golf between back porches is not ideal - and that the value of a "golf course community" is established by community, not immediate proximity.

Those responsible for developing new facilities need to help lead golf to this "new level".

cary lichtenstein

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2003, 10:56:40 PM »
I still think that the land determines what level course you can design and build. Nature is the greatest architect of all.

It is those talentes architects that can be inspired by the land and owner, that build the best courses today.

I would love to see someone come down to Florida, where we have an abundance of dead flat boring land, all with a sand base, and create something like Friar's Head.

I think Tom Fazio did a wonderful job with Shadow Creek. Building something like that, surely is the next level.Now I would like to see someone do something that is more natural like Friar's Head.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

TEPaul

Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2003, 08:42:06 AM »
Mark:

I think golf architecture as an expression is in a pretty good place right now. It's going in a lot of directions, creating good diversity which to me is sort of the essence of it all. Some of the new stuff is really great retro or renaissance stuff and others are going in other directions like Stranz and even Fazio. Even in the area of strategy how can one deny from even photos that a guy like Lester George with Kinloch is not moving in an interesting direction with strategic application. Kinloch, from the little I've seen of it isn't just subtle strategy it's "in your face", "must notice" and "must deal with" strategy! A golfer isn't being one dimensionally dictated to with that stuff, he's being almost required to make up his mind about a bunch of very diverse choices. It's obvious in its stark distinctness but is that a good thing--a different direction from most of the more narrow center dictation architecture of the last few decades? Sure it is, or it certainly is to me.

Look at that course in the west of Spann's. Is that another level and a good one even if a reuse? It seems pretty obvious it is.

And no one can deny the directions and levels that some of Doak, Hanse, De Vries, C&C's et al stuff is going in. That's some stuff that looks and plays as good as it ever got, in my opinion. Some elements of it are a return to some of the more important naturalism philosophies of a former era but none of them seem to be into duplication and all of them seem to want to find their own unique expression on partiuclar and diverse sites. All that is great and a higher level than the sort of boilerplate stuff of the "Modern Era" of 1950s to 1980s, excepting of course a guy who basically went his own unique vaguely retro way such as Pete Dye.

But a real, wholly unique and original new or next level? I don't know but there is one that GeoffShac sometimes alludes to that is borne out of some of the ultra naturalistic thoughts of those such as Behr, and perhaps Mackenzie.

That next level apparently was the dream to attempt to take golf architecture with the help of sophisticated machinery and possibly other technologies like agronomy or even just application to a level that would take it where it would appear almost seamless in more ways than we might now imagine with Nature itself.

This appeared to be Behr's dream and perhaps Mackenzie's too--afterall this would be the true architectural expression of his fundamental ideas on camouflage and Behr's on golf as a return to a true "sport" instead of a highly and architecturally defined man-made "game".

How could that ever be possible? The only way I can see is to attempt to blend better, or perhaps blur would be the best word, those "lines" or "divisions" between those few necessary but inherently artifical aspects of golf--tees, fairways, greens, and even the odd architectural prevalent vestige, the bunker feature, with that which either was or really does appear to be nature itself.

That appears to have been one dream and certainly would be one of a next level, if it were possible. Certainly golf architecture veered sharply from that idea or dream following that time when those men may have dreamed that dream. But could it come back to that, even in a small way now? I think it probably could and the various applications of it could turn out to be truly fascinating in maybe even some next level of all comprehensive ultra naturalism in architecture.

How to do it would be immensely complex in a whole variety of ways, but if it were done would golfers of today accept it and perhaps enjoy it even more? That's the unanswered question. Golf is definitely fighting far more locked in perceptions in architeture today than it was in Behr and Mackenzie's time though.

I'd like to see someone really try to go almost full-boat in this direction even if just to see what would happen and what the reaction would be. To do something like this, though, architects and others would probably have to give up and lay aside some of their locked in dictums and completely accepted formulae and philosophies. That would be such things as "directing the golfer's eye" in architecture. What's wrong with letting him look around for himself and figuring out his own best way to go? It might be foregoing some of the applications of landscape archtiecture in golf architecture. I never heard of a man who architecturally landscaped Nature the way nature itself did. In that vein even the old classic landscape architectural principles such as removing Nature's apparent deformities might have to be rethought! Tom MacWood is an advocate of this! There are numerous other apparently accepted ideas that may need to be rethought!

Behr believed it was possible somehow obviously to do some of these things and the reasons he thought it would be better and far more fundamentally enjoyable to golfers were for the damnedest reasons which almost delve into the inherent nature of man and his inherent relationship with Nature itself.

No one listened very carefully to him (or Mackenzie's dream) back then but maybe somehow they will now. Wouldn't that be ironic?

A_Clay_Man

Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2003, 09:09:32 AM »
TomP- If the ultimate goal is to seemlessly manufacture along natural lines, isn't it alot easy and cost effective just to let mother nature alone? Along the lines of less is more. Of course on a flat cotton field the repetative nature of every shot could be limiting to building a quality golf course.

F.L. Wright emphasized the randomness of nature and the difficulty in capturing that, is perhaps where the "brushstrokes" improvement has/will lead.

Norbert P

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2003, 03:35:27 PM »
Are you certain the architects of that time assumed future designs would be more daring and exciting?

 MacKenzie and George Thomas both believed that the future held exciting and promising designs due partly to construction technology advancements.  Unfortunately those technologies let designers build products instead of finding them and this practice became rote.  I do believe there is a shift for the better going on now.  

  Optimistically yours and cynically mine,  Slag
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

TEPaul

Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2003, 04:03:56 PM »
"TomP- If the ultimate goal is to seemlessly manufacture along natural lines, isn't it alot easier and cost effective just to let mother nature alone?"

Adam:

Sure it is theoretically. But there's unfortunately more to it than just being able to leave mother nature alone. If mother nature isn't cooperating with a good routing, what are you going to do? Well the two extremes are to change her by moving her all around or give up on it!

If mother nature let's you get so far as to accomplish an acceptable routing relatively minimally then what one might call the designing up phase of each hole of the routing (in the sense of how each hole needs to be arranged specifically to play well on its own) has to have her cooperate too in the sense of making sense out of the expected progession of the game of golf.

I think good architects who might be termed minimalist are just very good at seeing the best possibliities for overall routings and also the designing up phase for interesting individual golf holes better than other architects.

Those that aren't that great at seeing the possibilities of mother nature for golf just get into rearranging her anyway because it's so possible to do. That's when things start to look out of kilter in an overall sense.

Then obviously there are other utilitarian things to consider that most golfers don't have a clue about such as drainage considerations.

Super flat featureless sites are obviously real hard to create something minimal on of interest and super complicated sites topographically and otherwise might offer some really interesting things but unfortunately at the same time they too can create some real obstacles to both the routing phase and later the designing up phase of holes which creates problems for trying to stay minimal.

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2003, 08:45:32 PM »
an, you are dead-on with Tobacco Road.

The number of people that feel it is "over-the-top" and praise TPC and PGA West bewilder me.

How many courses have been built in the past ten years have the ability to blow the golfer away without being ludicrous.

Clearly TPC did it in its day and Tobacco Road does, for me, today. Kingsley is another course, which makes me excited to see Mike Devries work in the future.

However, some of the most celebrated new courses buck this trend; Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills, and Friar’s Head are celebrated even more. So maybe the next level is not the place that most architects would want to go.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Is anyone taking architecture to the next level?
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2003, 10:00:34 PM »
"We should revere the cradle of golf with its fine spirit and distinct atomsphere; but we may also be proud of our own development, and strive not only to keep up the standards of our past, but go on and improve our newer productions, for the ultimate in golf and golf architecture is not yet attained..."

George C. Thomas Jr., 1927


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