[cary lichtenstein]

Wow, wow, wow...Tiger's comeback from 4 surgeries including a spinal fusion. I've had 3 lumbar surgeries, the last a spinal fusion followed by a hip replacement on 2/5/19. It was about 15 months for me, start to finish this past year+ where I was unable to walk more than from the car to office or restaurant. Some of the time with a walker or cane. I was on Oxycotin as Tiger was with pain on a 1-10 scale, it was a screaming 10.


I went thru exactly the pain and suffering for the past 11 years that Tiger has gone through. I'm no physical athletic like Tiger, but I was a fairly good player for 58 years.


Watching the Masters for 4 days, every shot of Tiger's that was televised, I saw. He never winced, not once. For now, his back is sound. You can tell my his gait, follow thru, facial expressions.


Previous to this, the Masters when Jack won at 46 was my favorite, but this one, wow, off the charts. I think for 4 days, I must have jumped into Tiger's body and played with him every step of the way, sounds silly or crazy, but it was like I shared Tiger's dream to return and play well enough to win.


Hats off to Tiger

[Gib_Papazian]

Cary,


I'm in a similar situation - and intentionally did not start a fresh thread as this might cause a hellacious fight - but here goes: An email to a dear friend up north, who asked my take on Sunday's result - which more resembled a Daytona 500 pileup than a golf tunamint:



John,


Please don’t hate me, but I’ve got a slightly different perspective. Yes, Tiger won - which was fantabulous for golf itself and sports history in general.


A lot of strange things had to happen for him to win - 4 of 5 balls getting rinsed on #12, Koepka missing an easy-ass birdie putt on #18 (not even hitting the hole) - and what can only be characterized as “group underachievement;” not one top player in the field is legitimately afraid of Tiger.


It is not 2005 anymore - and these men are longer, stronger and just as focused as Tiger Woods.


Maybe it was his last hurrah, maybe not. I was there, inside the ropes, every step of the way at Pebble in 2000. I spent Sunday afternoon, just me and Trey Holland, no bullshit. But Tiger is a different man and the field is waaaaaay deeper.


That goes for Bethpage, too.


I’m not sure Tiger has ever played the Dunluce - putting aside the rerouting they did - and it is Rory’s home track. Best of luck, trying to beat that kid (at age 30) with all of Ireland cheering his every move.


But that is not really my point, because it is even possible Tiger wins the Grand Slam this year - the Cubs won the World Series, Trump was elected President, Duke went down and the Warriors blew a 31 point lead in the last 17.5 minutes of play last night.


Okay, we have established the energy of the universe is like a juiced slot machine, you almost expect 7777 to come up - depending on who pulls the handle. A wild, unlikely conspiracy theory, but the idea Trumpet is president and crooked Hillary Clinton is now an irrelevant joke - flaccidly barking at the moon - sounds just as implausible.


Everybody could feel that hurricane of improbability, swirling in the distance. Like when Freddie has seemingly already won the Masters, before the first player went off. That ball on #12 stayed up because providence had made it fait accompli.


Tiger needed some help and he got it. But I do not believe it was not without some serious intervention with needles full of juice.     


Now . . . . as a person who has endured severe spinal trouble my entire adult life, multiple epidurals, six trips to physical rehab etc etc etc . . . . . NOBODY comes back from four back surgeries - and however many knee scopes - without some “help.”


I spent a day with Tiger, just before he turned pro. Lovely kid, charming, funny, irreverent and cocky as fuck. However, the next time I saw him in person - a little more than 3 years later - he was obviously jacked-up.


My eyes do not lie, he may be a Brooks Koepka gym rat (like DJ), but Tiger's body was completely different - a skinny, lanky kid who suddenly looks more like a tight end or linebacker. Wider shoulders, thicker neck; his muscles rippled as he walked.


You know that I am thinking - and the rest of the golf world would be only too happy, averting their eyes and looking the other way - just like with Lance Armstrong, nuff said.


-g

[Jay Mickle]

Seems that there is drug testing required. Tiger was a skinny kid now it appears that his bone structure supports his physique.
http://https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2017/06/20/pga-tour-to-start-blood-testing-next-season/103032484/

[David_Tepper]

"A lot of strange things had to happen for him to win - 4 of 5 balls getting rinsed on #12, Koepka missing an easy-ass birdie putt on #18 (not even hitting the hole) - and what can only be characterized as “group underachievement;” not one top player in the field is legitimately afraid of Tiger."

Gib -

Nicklaus got plenty of help when he won the Masters in 1986. Seve got wet on #15 and Norman fanned one into the gallery on #18. Player won his first Masters when Palmer butchered the 72nd hole. Faldo won when Hoch missed a 2-footer in the playoff.

Things happen in golf. Sometimes tournaments are won by not losing them.

DT

[Steve Wilson]

David,


I have been telling people that since Sunday.  More often than not games are won by those who make the fewest mistakes and so avoid losing them.


Three smartest professional golfers of all time, Hogan, Nicklaus, and Woods.  They learned to win by not losing and stuck with it.  Tiger's performance and strategic choices on Sunday were incredibly patient.  If the balls don't go into the water on 12 he might have had to be more aggressive, but they did and he picked up the marbles.  Then the shot on 16 which was absolutely epic.


Can't speak to the juicing issue as I have been for the most part blessed with a very healthy back and so the only performance enhancing drug, not including alcohol , I've indulged has been ibuprofen[size=78%].[/size]

[Jerry Kluger]

First I would pose the question: Should the fusion on Tiger's have been done first and were all the others just mistakes by other doctors?


Am I correct that this is the first major Tiger won where he wasn't leading going into the final round?  If that is the case what does it tell us about this new Tiger?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Who did the fusion?  The telecast mentioned him going to England, but the 10PM news here in DFW credited a local surgeon.  That's about par for the course, here, Dallas claims anyone famous as their own, including the likes of Bonnie and Clyde.

[Nigel Islam]

First I would pose the question: Should the fusion on Tiger's have been done first and were all the others just mistakes by other doctors?

No

[George Pazin]

People are certainly free to speculate to their hearts’ desire on Tiger’s regimen, so to speak, but an anecdotal observation of a changed physique, even a dramatically changed one, is simply ridiculous, imho. I personally can attest to the fact that I had a very thin build most of my first 35+ years on the planet, and worked hard in my late teens to change that, to no avail. Yet when I finally found the right training program for me, my strength exploded and my physique changed, fairly significantly, in my late 30s, no less. My shoulders are significantly wider and I get comments on my arms not infrequently, and I’m willing to wager I’ve had more pizza and beer than Tiger ever has, and I’ve definitely never touched anything juicy other than a V-8....


And if you’ve ever met a linebacker, well, you know Tiger isn’t even built like a strong safety, let alone a linebacker.


Feel free to disagree, but that type of observation says more about the observer’s complete lack of knowledge of training than anything else, to me anyway.


I also have a little experience with surgery (knee reconstruction in my case) and will say simply that everyone’s body and experiences are different.


Rant over, back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[SL_Solow]

Earl was a pretty big guy, baseball catcher before he got fat.  Who knows?  I'm sure he didn't use deer antler spray.

[Gib_Papazian]

Gentlemen, I freely admit to absolute speculation. That stated, I've got the street cred of 35 years experience to state that I believe in redemption, just not in preposterous fairy tales.


Tiger won because he was the smartest, most patient animal in the jungle. And he may win again for the same reason. 14 majors and doubtless the most astonishing tournament golfer who ever lived.


All I am saying is Tiger, even being there - which includes winning late last season - does not seem plausible. The doctor and nurses laughed when I asked if I could ever play golf again - and Tiger was worse off than me . . . . . yeah, my back was worse than his, no doubt, but throw in a blown up left knee?


Sorry, without help, I do not buy it. I hope and pray I'm wrong, but I spent as lot of time at PacBell Park - if you get what I mean. 


   

[jeffwarne]

comparing oneself to Tiger...in anything, is a fool's errand...
especially when dealing with something as highly individual and varied as a prognosis.


Tiger won this major for the same reason he won the previous 17(he has 18, Jack has 20-amazing how the scorekeeping changed as soon as Tiger won  3 US Ams.)
The reason is that he's a great player and like Jack, even at not at is best, he can find a way to win.

[Mike Sweeney]

All I am saying is Tiger, even being there - which includes winning late last season - does not seem plausible. The doctor and nurses laughed when I asked if I could ever play golf again - and Tiger was worse off than me . . . . . yeah, my back was worse than his, no doubt, but throw in a blown up left knee?


Sorry, without help, I do not buy it. I hope and pray I'm wrong, but I spent as lot of time at PacBell Park - if you get what I mean. 

I have no doubt that Tiger was on some sort of "juice" back in the day. Reminder, there was no ban on steroids in golf because there was a belief that steroids would mess up your short game. I think this all led to his physical break down. While the car crash was a start, it seems like he hit rock bottom at the DUI in 2017 -https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/tiger-woods-dui-arrest-golfer-had-five-drugs-system-toxicology-n792856


I honestly believe he said "screw it" and wanted to clean out his system. I am sure that he is using all sorts of nutraceuticals, but he seems in a better space for sure. Bethpage is going to have a lot of rough, see other thread, with narrow fairways, so back to back is a stretch. That was true even in the glory days.


Just for the record, a GCAer turned me onto Yoga last summer and I played pretty well yesterday carrying my bag!! Oh yea, I finally got fitted for clubs in November

[Bill Raffo]

If he's such a juice head,  why didn't it show up in the 2017 DUI? Or any of the recent PGA tour drug tests? Surely he would need juice now more than ever.  His back is so bad it's impossible that he won the Masters without "help?"  Do you have any idea how much practice goes into enabling a professional golfer to hit 58 of 72 greens at Augusta?  You think he's taking pain meds through the 100's of hours of preparation and is still able to perform like that while on even more pain meds?


None of it makes sense. Golf and steroids don't make sense.  Do I think it's possibe he used them to recover from some of the surgeries   Sure but who cares?

Tiger gamed the kids. 15 of the top 25 in the world were at -3 heading into Saturday. He said he was going to be patient, plod, get to the back nine Sunday. He did. They made mistakes, choked, self destructed, he didn't and when his moment came to seize the tournament, he hit his tee shot to 18 inches on 16. Game over.  Brilliant performance over four days and 20 plus hours of playing golf out there.

The squeeze fade is a revelation for him. He still flights his irons better than anyone in the world. If he gets that putter going even a little bit from 5-10 feet, we'll see whose talking about "too much depth now," "these young kids are too good."   His last three majors are T6 (With a back nine lead Sunday), 2nd and 1st....at 43 years of age. Incredible.  On to Bethpage...

[John Kavanaugh]

I never thought Gib and Bill Donohue would be a coxed pair rowing on lake wacky doodle. Tiger is our legitimate 2019 Masters Champion and evil Muslim goblins did not set the fire at Notre Dame Cathedral.

[Steve Lang]

   Just speculating, but kid tiger could have taken up swimming butterfly stroke in a flume to become STUD TIGER, with defensive half-back physique, as part of his pseudo seal-super golfer training regimen under Earl... each morning at 5:30 am...   


my mother in-law had the spinal fusion procedure on her broken back after a car accident like 8 yers ago, only reason she can walk and ride her bike like a champ today, at 90... incredible personal comeback indeed

[JMEvensky]

People are certainly free to speculate to their hearts’ desire on Tiger’s regimen, so to speak, but an anecdotal observation of a changed physique, even a dramatically changed one, is simply ridiculous, imho. I personally can attest to the fact that I had a very thin build most of my first 35+ years on the planet, and worked hard in my late teens to change that, to no avail. Yet when I finally found the right training program for me, my strength exploded and my physique changed, fairly significantly, in my late 30s, no less. My shoulders are significantly wider and I get comments on my arms not infrequently, and I’m willing to wager I’ve had more pizza and beer than Tiger ever has, and I’ve definitely never touched anything juicy other than a V-8....

Pics or it didn't happen .

[Peter Pallotta]

I think it's true, JM. I've seen a pic, and it seems to me that George must come from the Spartan line of Greeks rather than the more wispy Athenians. See his love of the muscular Oakmont as proof. It's only the Socratics who rave about NGLA.

[JMEvensky]

I think it's true, JM. I've seen a pic, and it seems to me that George must come from the Spartan line of Greeks rather than the more wispy Athenians. See his love of the muscular Oakmont as proof. It's only the Socratics who rave about NGLA.

Good points. I can see George as a Menelaus/Leonidas type of guy.

[John Crowley]

"A lot of strange things had to happen for him to win - 4 of 5 balls getting rinsed on #12, Koepka missing an easy-ass birdie putt on #18 (not even hitting the hole) - and what can only be characterized as “group underachievement;” not one top player in the field is legitimately afraid of Tiger."

Gib -

Nicklaus got plenty of help when he won the Masters in 1986. Seve got wet on #15 and Norman fanned one into the gallery on #18. Player won his first Masters when Palmer butchered the 72nd hole. Faldo won when Hoch missed a 2-footer in the playoff.

Things happen in golf. Sometimes tournaments are won by not losing them.

DT


+1

[Kalen Braley]

As much as Gib has seemingly gone half off the deep end on this one... there is at least some anecdotal plausibility behind this particular ramble.

I present as exhibit A Lance Armstrong with all the amazing/unbelievable things he did, and his ability to beat the system and countless protocols/tests for his entire career...

P.S.  I'm not equating Tiger to this or saying he has done same just saying there are least some examples out there...

[John Kavanaugh]

Can't we ever be allowed to embrace the great opportunities that life presents us? Sunday was not about what Gib thinks.

[A.G._Crockett]

So a large part of my career involved watching kids grow up, and helping them change their bodies in the weight room.  I see absolutely nothing in Tiger's case to convince me that he was a juicer.  I don't know that he wasn't, but I just don't see it.  And the accounts of his workout routines from Haney and others certainly square with a skinny kid putting on muscle from just plain old hard work.  I've seen a zillion kids come into high school rail thin, and leave with really different bodies thru hard work in the weight room and the natural growth process; happens all the time.

Here's another way to think about it:  If you had never seen Tiger Woods, but were shown a picture of Earl and Tida and were asked to predict what a male child might look like, would you predict that the kid would be a pencil?  Earl Woods was a strong looking dude; thick in the shoulders and chest and forearms.  Why would an adult Tiger not be?

[JESII]

The questions about Tiger's physical transformation are legitimate for two reasons; he chose Anthony Galea as one of his doctors, and his injuries over the last 10 or 12 years are apparently consistent with the effects performance enhancing drugs can have downstream.


This is not an accusation, just a statement to those suggesting it's inappropriate.


As far as the faith some had in his pending resurgence over these 10 years, good on you. With no ill will, I considered him finished as an elite level player for several years simply due to the number injuries, the loss of motivation and the difficult road back. Once he was found asleep at the wheel a couple years ago, I simply hoped he would survive for his children's sake. I figured he was in a really deep abyss. To win the Masters 2 years later, AND be the best player in the field in doing so is astonishing.


Hogan won how many majors after his injuries?


Someone please make the case for him not winning three more majors. When Jack won in '86 he was (appeared) 15 years older than Tiger this past weekend...

[Michael Dugger]

The PED world has become so incredibly sophisticated the past couple of decades.  I certainly don't know diddly squat about what Tiger Woods may or may not have ingested, but considering his familiarity with Ambien and other pain killers, there is some smoke here, gents.  Considering how he appeared to be the fittest golfer walking planet earth circa 2007 or so, I don't think it's insane to suggest he did SOMETHING.


Hell, if I could afford it, I would be popping human growth hormone and testosterone regularly, zero questions asked.


It's this I suspect is probably more the case with Tiger Woods.  He probably wasn't jamming needles of hardcore steroids in his buttocks, but there was probably something going on.  The cream and the clear...you can't grind that hard for that long without some performance enhancers.  For recovery, if anything. 

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