News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 2
(OT) Did you see that?
« on: April 06, 2019, 09:35:13 PM »
I don't watch much basketball. No professional basketball at all. I do like college ball. This year's tournament has been absolutely thrilling. Living in Virginia I root for UVA, Mr. Jefferson's school. I had counted them out when they played Purdue and certainly tonight vs Auburn. They won with smoke and mirrors and heart. Kyle Guy scored six points in the last six seconds, including three straight foul shots to win. I know there was a missed double dribble but you got to give it to the VA players. They dug deep. Tough losses for Purdue and Auburn. It will take a while to get over them.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

JLahrman

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2019, 11:16:29 PM »
I don't watch much during the season either; I'm a Xavier fan but don't see much of them living in Austin TX (though they did lose to the Longhorns in the second round of the NIT). I did catch the Texas Tech-Michigan regional semifinal game and was tremendously impressed with the Red Raiders. Going to be an interesting final, 40 points might win it!

mike_beene

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2019, 11:42:37 PM »
I guess they will hang an NIT banner in Austin.

Carl Rogers

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2019, 10:28:10 AM »
When will the charade of amateurism end?  What's wrong with send a $20k check home, each game, for all team members of these schools?


I have been having a hard time with the NCAA for a long time.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jeff Taylor

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2019, 11:10:33 AM »
When will the charade of amateurism end?  What's wrong with send a $20k check home, each game, for all team members of these schools?


I have been having a hard time with the NCAA for a long time.


Which NCAA team's members get paid? Just the teams that qualify for the tournament? Does everybody on the bench get paid? Paid players playing against non-paid players during the regular season? Athletes of other collegiate sports not getting paid, what does that say?
Is it possible that amateurism cannot be achieved when the sport is popular? Let's get rid of the US Amateur. It is shown on national TV after all. 

Steve Wilson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2019, 12:34:31 PM »
 Tommy, I didn't have a dog in this fight, but "you got to give it the VA players" is precisely what the officials did by missing/not calling the double dribble at mid court.  If a 71 year old man in his house with a cat on his lap can see that I don't know how the highly paid zebras, two of whom were in perfect position miss that.  Astonishingly,  neither the Texas Tech (should be Auburn) coaches nor the even more overpaid announcers noticed it at the time.  As for myself, I just assumed, after exclaiming, "How the hell is not double dribble," this was just another case of that which was once a rule had been changed to make the game more "exciting." 

And yes, it was a foul at the end, no question, but for all intents and purposes this game was over at mid court.  Sports are getting very difficult to watch with the egregious errors affecting the outcomes near the end.  Saints/Rams and now this.     

 
 
 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 01:00:51 PM by Steve Wilson »
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2019, 12:42:23 PM »
Hmm,

How did Texas Tech (and its coaches) play Virginia yesterday!  ;D

Just joshing!  As for that 3 point shot foul, i've seen far far worse at the end of games not get called.  That was extremely ticky tack given the situation, much less to get a crack at the National Championship....
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 12:44:14 PM by Kalen Braley »

JLahrman

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2019, 12:53:07 PM »

The foul call was not ticky-tack at all. Like everyone else, I hate to see a game decided in that way, but the Auburn defender clearly made contact with the lower half of the shooter's body (and the shooter didn't jump into him), and the contact clearly occurred before the shot was released.


I'm really put off by the general basketball trend of three-point shooters collapsing to the ground over the smallest amount of contact in an attempt to draw a foul, but in this case it was very clearly a foul.

corey miller

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2019, 12:59:14 PM »





And how many of the 70,000 fans at the game or those watching (or even the players or Coach Pearl) knew it was a double dribble?


Heck CBS had two color people who "swallowed the whistle"...In fact Raftery said "good job of officiating knowing the situation" after the foul was called. 



Craig Disher

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2019, 01:03:49 PM »
It was clearly a foul on TT at the end but that level of contact went without penalty for most of the game. What was really sad was the failure by the ref - who was just a few feet from the violation - to call dd on UVA. His focus must have been elsewhere, perhaps watching to see how UVA planned to set up a shot or looking at the clock. I'd be surprised if he's in the finals.
Amateurism in college basketball would be a lot less conflicted if and when the NBA lifts their ban on hs kids going straight to the pros. I understand the economics - it's cost-effective to have the NCAA act as the NBA's farm system. What I think is often overlooked is the way that Div 1 bb, and fb at the larger schools, support the sports that generate virtually no revenue - gymnastics, swimming, track and field, etc. Without the income, some would not exist. Once the players have an option to enter the NBA whenever they chooses and forego their amateur status, the argument that they should be paid for play - in whatever form that might take - becomes pretty weak. An NCAA reform that would require schools to ensure that scholarships continue until graduation for all scholarship atheletes would correct a lot of abuses.

corey miller

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2019, 01:13:50 PM »



The NCAA could circumvent the NBA rule but they prefer to play the game along with the NBA and CBS and ESPN.


There are 13 scholarships...a variation of what Craig suggests (you can't guarantee a scholarship until a kid graduates) is to make each scholarship 4 years and if a guy like Zion come along he can play for a year but it "costs" the school four years of scholarship.


Pretty simple in fact but it seems CBS/NCAA would rather promote the game more like the NBA than to preserve good competition. 


I will repeat...how many people knew it was a double dribble when it happened? And BTW, the official was most concentrating on how/when the intentional foul was going to be made.  In fact it was close to being called prior to the DD. 


When did CBS and the crew mention the double dribble? At what point do you think Bruce Pearl knew of it? I suspect he did not know until he left the court. 

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2019, 01:16:19 PM »
Corey,

I knew it right away, but i've officiated BBall for several years at lower levels.

And that's the point...it doesn't matter if you,or I, or CBS, or those 70,000+ knows...the refs should know...

P.S.  Craig makes an excellent point BTW, there is far more contact that occurs throughout a game that goes uncalled.  To call that one at such a critical juncture is Bush League, and doubly so after missing the DD that should be obvious to any trained ref..
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 01:21:57 PM by Kalen Braley »

Jim Hoak

  • Total Karma: 5
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2019, 01:17:43 PM »
I have a hard time getting too excited about men's college basketball so long as "one and done" is the rule.  It's demeaning to them that good universities like UVA and Duke would play that fake game.
I understand that the rule may be changing, which will be good..
A far better case for true college sports are the two ladies who battled in the Augusta National Women's Amateur--both of whom got their LPGA cards but elected to stay in school for their senior year to get their degree.  That's something to be proud of!!

Steve Wilson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2019, 01:25:01 PM »
I have no argument with the foul call at the end.  He contacted Guy's lower body while he was still holding the ball and affected the shot.  Under the circumstances I think it was a correct and courageous call, but had the zebras been watching Jerome, and who else do you watch in those circumstances, the game is effectively over. 


Why have video review if you aren't going to use it for the obvious and the egregious?  You see traveling called and not called in the lane when there are many feet and lots of body contact, you see anticipatory fouls called on clean blocks in high traffic situations and I understand how those can be missed.   But in the last two minutes of the game they will examine the video tape as though it were a new found Rosetta Stone to try and determine who touched the ball last on an out of bounds play.  If you can't tell in the first thirty seconds then you don't have enough evidence to overturn. Yet, something in the middle of the floor and far more obvious than the mysterious anchor punch in the second Ali-Liston fight, and crickets are heard. 


One last thing, given the rampant ungoverned steroid use in baseball during the ascendancy of McQwire, Bonds, etc.  Hank Aaron is still my all time home run king.


I hate to rant about this but after the Saints/Rams fiasco and dozens of other questionable judgement calls in all sports, it really irks me when something as obvious as this goes uncalled, particularly when it has such a significant impact. 


Yes, credit to Guy for making the free throws, but how would we feel if a major championship was decided by a similar error like a guy grounding his club in sand which he thought was a waste area but was visually indistinguishable from a bunker....or if the USGA waited for two hours to inform someone of a questionable two stroke penalty for causing his ball to move (hmm using that example we could reboot the Auburn/Virginia game with 1.5 seconds left and see if Virginia can prevent Auburn from running out the clock).


In my skewed world I'll offer a few examples.  The Patriots won't have won the last Super Bowl until they play the Saints, Virginia will never be national champs this year even if they beat Texas Tech, and in fact I'll be sitting by the TV waiting for Auburn and Texas Tech to take the floor to decide this years Final Four.  Galarraga  pitched a perfect game, etc. I guess if Virginia wins Monday I'll continue to annoy people by referring to it as the 2019 NCAA Final Four Shampionship  ::)


Officiating is damned difficult and I do applaud the efforts to help them out with video review, but you really to have use it to correct the blatantly obvious rules violations and not niggle endlessly over judgement calls that aren't immediately reversible.
Over and out from this lunatic's habitat.
 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 03:02:59 PM by Steve Wilson »
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2019, 01:25:37 PM »
I have a hard time understanding why people don't understand the allure of tens of millions of dollars vs staying in school all 4 years and scrounging for quarters to go to Taco Bell.

JLahrman

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2019, 01:40:24 PM »

Regarding video review, I think it's a terrible idea to expand it to calls that are all going to be subjective. Yes it would have fixed the Saints-Rams call. But fans are going to be even more upset by the video review process when subjective calls are reviewed and the results aren't what they expect.


Regarding the amateurism question, and I'm not sure why we even started talking about it, the NCAA and the universities don't have to pay players. All they have to let the athletes do is endorse products, profit off their likeness, etc.

Steve Wilson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2019, 01:56:37 PM »
I know I promised, but...


JLahrman, I'm inclined to agree with you, but they have already expanded video review to the subjective in football, is it a catch or not, is it a fumble or not, basketball who touched the ball last, etc.  And if you can wait until the next time out to review whether or not it was a two or three point shot why can't you look back at an obvious double dribble off your own foot?  Can you imagine the firestorm had that happened? 


And I like the endorsements idea.  That way we don't have the ridiculous proposition of paying the reserve on the swim team the same stipend as the Heisman Trophy winning quarterback who leads his team to the national championship. 
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

corey miller

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2019, 01:59:46 PM »



Jim


I disagree with the notion that UVA and Duke are playing some sort of "fake game".  Please look at the rosters and the histories of the respective programs, they are not even close which says nothing of the Duke athletes being able to take classes across town.


Kalen


So it is your position as a basketball official that the last foul should not have been called ? and especially in light of not calling a DD five seconds earlier which BTW I am sure they did not realize? 


I will acknowledge that the game is terribly difficult to officiate but the type of selective foul judgements you are making is what makes the game almost unwatchable. 


Yes more reviews are the answer.....

Carl Rogers

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2019, 02:17:54 PM »
When will the charade of amateurism end?  What's wrong with send a $20k check home, each game, for all team members of these schools?


I have been having a hard time with the NCAA for a long time.


Which NCAA team's members get paid? Just the teams that qualify for the tournament? Does everybody on the bench get paid? Paid players playing against non-paid players during the regular season? Athletes of other collegiate sports not getting paid, what does that say?
Is it possible that amateurism cannot be achieved when the sport is popular? Let's get rid of the US Amateur. It is shown on national TV after all.
everyone on the bench gets paid for each game as the team progresess thru the tournament.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

corey miller

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2019, 02:27:48 PM »



Carl


How much do you propose we pay a men's or women's lacrosse team as they progress through a tournament? or a ladies basketball team?

Craig Disher

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2019, 02:28:45 PM »
The foul at the end was subjective given that so much contact occurs during the course of the game. No two shooting fouls are exactly the same; nor are charge/block calls or moving screens. Whether or not a shot is 2 or 3 is not subjective and can be reviewed, same with an out of bounds call. I think a double dribble is a non-subjective call. The only issue to be determined is whether the ball was touched by the defender or whether the player put two hands on the ball. Most of the time both could be determined by a video review. At issue here is who would request a review? If it's unseen by the refs should the bench be able to request a video review? The last 2 minutes in a game are critical. A team could have enough time to work through a blown call. With 2 minutes left, it's just not likely.

Steve Wilson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2019, 02:57:44 PM »

From Craig Disher:
[/size][/color]
[/size]The last 2 minutes in a game are critical. A team could have enough time to work through a blown call. With 2 minutes left, it's just not likely.[/color]
[/size][/color]Craig, and with 1.5 seconds left it's even more unlikely.  I think the foul call was appropriate because he contacted Guy's legs while he was still in his shooting motion and quite likely affected the shot.  It was left to Guy to make the free throws, but this is the thing he does best.  Terrible decision by the Auburn player, courageous call by the official, and clutch performance by Guy at the free throw line, but it's like disregarding a rule infraction on an approach shot and then applauding a birdie putt to win a tournament.  The game should have been over and everything happened after the double dribble should have had the validity as a tremendous practice session on the putting green.     


I am still baffled that no one on the Auburn bench or the announcing crew or apparently in the trailer with all the monitors saw the double dribble or recognized it as such in real time.   Perhaps it is more understandable if you reflect on the way "ball handling" has indeed become the norm instead of dribbling.  Watch video of a game from the fifties and now and recognize that scarcely a possession would go by without some being called for traveling.  I doubt that it's something officials even emphasize these days.


I did have someone say to me that in the long run these things even out.  That may be so in terms of bad calls occurring for and against you over the course of a season ranging from out of conference warm up games to conference championships, but when we are talking about a championship game and the final seconds, they don't even up unless these two teams are going to be playing over and over for the next few months to determine this semi final. 


I don't know why I can't let this just go, but it's a startling failure by the supposed experts both on the floor and in the booth to be so caught up in the moment they absolutely missed an easy and obvious and crucial violation.  Almost like watching a guy tee it up in the fairway and then complain that he got an undeserved and favorable ruling about relief from a sprinkler head after the shot came to rest. 


BTW, there are several small villages named Badcall in Scotland.  They have tried to sell me on the notion these are Celtic place names but I think it's certain beyond a doubt that these are the places where all bad sports officials born.  If we could get rid of all these spawning grounds of incompetents everything would be hunky-dory, I'm sure.   
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Mike Sweeney

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2019, 03:37:49 PM »

I don't know why I can't let this just go, but it's a startling failure by the supposed experts both on the floor and in the booth to be so caught up in the moment they absolutely missed an easy and obvious and crucial violation.  Almost like watching a guy tee it up in the fairway and then complain that he got an undeserved and favorable ruling about relief from a sprinkler head after the shot came to rest. 




Steve,


I just saw this. There is an argument that this shirt grab was a foul, and caused the Virginia #11 from picking the ball back up with his right hand, and thus no double dribble would have occurred:



I slowed it down on this twitter, and I could go either way on the shirt pull:

https://twitter.com/brian_giuffra/status/1114683574127558659?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1114683574127558659&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.12up.com%2Fposts%2F6338748-video-virginia-got-away-with-obvious-double-dribble-in-final-possession-of-final-four-win

The foul at the end on the 3 pointer was a foul, in my opinion, and the Virginia kid sticking 3 shots at the foul line was amazing, to me.

It was that close. I know Bruce Pearl from our BC days, and he is obviously a walking controversy, but he handled it perfectly in the post game:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26458859/the-foul-call-forever-overshadow-virginia-auburn-final-four
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 03:40:12 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

JLahrman

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2019, 03:49:39 PM »
I know I promised, but...

JLahrman, I'm inclined to agree with you, but they have already expanded video review to the subjective in football, is it a catch or not, is it a fumble or not, basketball who touched the ball last, etc.  And if you can wait until the next time out to review whether or not it was a two or three point shot why can't you look back at an obvious double dribble off your own foot?  Can you imagine the firestorm had that happened? 
 



There is a certain amount of subjectivity in those calls, I agree. But none is as subjective as pass interference. A certain amount of contact is allowed. And there is the question of who initiated it. I think it's a terrible kneejerk reaction for the NFL to have made pass interference reviewable. Yes the Saints got hosed with that call. But next year I think fans are going to be even madder when what they think is or is not clear pass interference against their team does not come out that way after a video review.


For basketball, I'm not even sure what is reviewable. Nothing will be worse than baseball though, or at least how baseball used to do it. A solo home run in the eighth inning of a 12-1 game could be reviewed to see if it was fair or foul, but an RBI double down the line in a 2-1 game couldn't be.

Steve Wilson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: (OT) Did you see that?
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2019, 04:16:49 PM »
Mike, I looked at the link that shows the double dribble, and OMG the double dribble is even worse than I remembered.  And no one cottoned onto it in live action.  The shirt tug is far more incidental, than the correct call on the foul on Guy. Another curious thing here is I have often seen shirt tugs ignored by officials who are aware that the defenders are trying to foul to stop the clock. Much the same can be said of the foul they actually called  just before Jerome was launching his desperation heave. And my God did they give Virginia a favorable point to in bound from.  A full ten to fifteen feet in advance of where the foul occurred.
 
My understanding of the rule may be erroneous as I thought once you dribbled off your foot you could only possess the ball and not continue dribbling.  If that is so then Jerome has hung out to dry once he put the ball behind his back and off his foot.  If he could have continued dribbling then there is an argument that the shirt tug interfered with his ability to continue his dribble.


The officials did not cover themselves with glory at mid court. 






OK, now I have to go meditate and let this go.  OMMMMMMMM.
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.