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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2018, 09:05:37 PM »
One more question: 

Would CPC 16 be a better hole if they scrapped the landing area to the left, then dotted the crescent of the cove with tee boxes, from the existing to one of about 80-90 yds? 

That way all levels of golfers could get the thrill of going for the green in regulation!


Bump
an oldie but a goodie...
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2018, 10:09:09 PM »
Hi Jeff, it's the 2000s calling - we want our thread back...

And to think, when Jeff B noted the growing disparity in driving distances (between pros and good amateurs) he was referencing the golden age as compared to 2003, i.e. just when that disparity started to increase exponentially!

And how about Pat M -- who years later was always stressing that no matter how far back you moved the tees, the 'original architectural intent' was still lost from the landing/driving zone to the green -- arguing that 5 sets of tees allowed everyone to interface with the design!

This is when I trot out my old line about the differences between the championship tees and the regular/members' tees at Augusta - i.e. for some 50 years, during which time the course wasn't lengthened hardly at all, the difference averaged about 25-30 yards (sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more).  What is it now, on average - 90-100 yards?

P
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 10:10:58 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2018, 06:44:54 AM »
Jeff

Marvellous. DM and Tom D articulated brilliantly what I've been thinking for a long time. The thread title also sums it up perfectly.

Niall

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2018, 07:08:37 AM »



You probably do not play in windy conditions very often.....

Okay, I admit it, it is because of my personal bias, but I despise multiple tee boxes. 

I am not talking about courses with a couple of tee boxes, with the front one used for some seniors, beginners, and short-hitting women.  I am also not talking about 3 sets of tee markers on these two tees. 

I am talking about these new-fangled courses with their 27 tee boxes and a 260 yd difference between the front and back.   On second thought, forget about this exaggerated  example, it is absurd enough the way it really is-- Seven tee boxes and 'only' 130 yds from front to back.

I mean come on, if there are 90 yards between the blacks and the whites, then you arent really playing the same course, are you?  Strategically, I mean. 

  If this is really necessary, then why are some of our older great courses still great with only a couple of boxes? 

In protest, I am only playing blacks from now on, and I am taking my 36 handicap friends with me.  I better get some answers or some of you might be in for some slow rounds. 

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2018, 07:23:49 AM »
Mr Cristian


I played with Mr Moriarty on that epic day when he laid up short of the 16th.  I think he got a 4, which was better than two of the the three other better players in our foursome.


In these days where 260 is a 5 or 6 iron for the pros, holes like CPC cry out for a further tee.  I think they have one up in the trees to the left and back that Marion Hollins identified back in the day.  If they were still playing the Crosby (or AT&T, or whatever......) there might be a need for a 300+ tee, but it ain't gonna happen for the members, most of whom moriarty the hole and walk away with a 4 or 5.


hciR
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2018, 11:56:41 AM »
Rich,


I've heard about that infamous shot too... the most exhilarating layup in all of golf!!  ;D




Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2018, 03:17:31 PM »
Rich,
I've heard about that infamous shot too... the most exhilarating layup in all of golf!!  ;D

Damn, 16 years later, that hole still comes up.  If only I had the courage to fire Barry on the 2nd hole when he said, and I quote, "damn it Lou, if you make me chase your divots all day we are not going to get along".  Or certainly before hitting my shot on 15 when he wouldn't give me anything less than a 9-iron and I flew the green by 10-20 yards.  Huntley loved to tell the story about what happened from that shot when Barry quit talking to me forward.  Like you, I should have hit my driver, the straightest club in my bag, deep into the 16th green and two-putted.  But then we wouldn't have the story.  I get teary-eyed remembering such a beautiful day with the great man to greet us on a magnificent course when we were still young enough to play like we could (I lost contact with Huckaby, but hear that he still can).

As to David Moriarty, he was/is a very smart guy.  But do you go to CPC to lay up on #16?  I am pretty sure he played it again with Lynn S a couple of years later, and again, he played to his strengths.

BTW, this is the sort of thread- sans the CPC stuff- that was once common place on the site.  It may sound strange for me to say, but I do miss not seeing David on the site.   CPC is a course that doesn't need five sets of tees, but many modern courses do.  Hybrid tees are a partial solution without making the start of the hole too untidy.  My home course goes from nearly 7317 yards to 6813 to 6220.  By moving up one set on three very long par 4s to around 6650, the course would be much more playable for us older members.  There is nothing to stop it other than getting the course re-rated. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2018, 06:28:41 PM »
Lou,

Good story and comments.

In my one playing of CPC, I too had a poor caddy experience.  I won't get into the details, but in retrospect it would have been more pleasant to just carry my own.  ;D 

When I approached 16, I had a decent round going, (by my standards), and it was never even a question which club would come out on the tee.  After putting two in the drink, I took a drop up ahead and a X on the hole...but I didn't even care.  Such a magical golfing spot, 15-18, I just drank it all in as best I could..

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2018, 07:03:06 PM »
Lou,

Good story and comments.

In my one playing of CPC, I too had a poor caddy experience.  I won't get into the details, but in retrospect it would have been more pleasant to just carry my own.  ;D 



Isn't it amazing that the more iconic the course, the more often this happens......Pity..
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2018, 09:36:57 PM »
If there is one trend I like in golf it is one of adding more tees (particularly shorter tees).   Anything to help make the game faster and more enjoyable for a wider number of golfers is probably a positive.  We are even advocating for 18 hole par 70-72 courses to set up options for all the holes to play as par threes.  I have been promoting this idea for years (am sure others are as well).  This is gaining traction and makes for a fun and interesting (and faster) alternative way to play one’s golf course. And you don’t even need formal teeing locations to do this.  I suggest giving the idea a go at your club one designated afternoon for a few weeks and see what kind of response you get. 



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2018, 09:41:57 PM »
We are even advocating for 18 hole par 70-72 courses to set up options for all the holes to play as par threes.  I have been promoting this idea for years (am sure others are as well).  This is gaining traction and makes for a fun and interesting (and faster) alternative way to play one’s golf course. And you don’t even need formal teeing locations to do this.  I suggest giving the idea a go at your club one designated afternoon for a few weeks and see what kind of response you get.


If you want to turn golf into a par-3 contest, courses could take up a lot less land than they do today.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2018, 09:45:53 PM »
  We are even advocating for 18 hole par 70-72 courses to set up options for all the holes to play as par threes.


Isn't that option there every day? Just tee it up in the fairway.
what's the fun of 2-300 yard walks between holes?


why stop at par 3's?
Why not tees on the fringe for an 18 hole 8000 yard walk par 2 putting course?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #62 on: October 15, 2018, 06:00:52 AM »
Mark

I hate to pile in but have to agree with Jeff and Tom. I’d also add that length isn’t the real issue with pace of play IMO. The big problem is players not being ready to play; leaving their clubs in the wrong place when they get to the green; fannying about when they get on the green; taking an age to clear the green when they have putted out; and generally paying no attention to others waiting to play.

Increasingly my frustration is not the time taken to complete a round but the moments in the round when you have to wait because of the above.

Niall

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #63 on: October 15, 2018, 12:57:03 PM »
I played a venerable Welsh links much beloved of Bernard Darwin recently.
On the par-4 2nd hole there is quite a carry over broken ground for some players off the tee, more so if playing into a headwind.
The club have sensibly in my mind introduced a very forward tee on the far side of the broken ground area at the start of the fairway.
This provides a playing option for a lessor length/strength/ability player whilst not effecting others. They have also done the same on a few other holes.
The forward tee sits at the end of the long light coloured path shown on the left side in the following photo.
atb





Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2018, 02:03:37 PM »
I played a venerable Welsh links much beloved of Bernard Darwin recently.
On the par-4 2nd hole there is quite a carry over broken ground for some players off the tee, more so if playing into a headwind.
The club have sensibly in my mind introduced a very forward tee on the far side of the broken ground area at the start of the fairway.
This provides a playing option for a lessor length/strength/ability player whilst not effecting others. They have also done the same on a few other holes.


Thomas:


Every course should be mindful of having tees so that seniors and higher-handicap women and beginners can get around.


It only bothers me when there is the need to make another full set of tee markers and course rating and all that to accommodate that goal.


My feeling on back tees is the same.  It's cool to have a handful of back tees that only the best players would want to tackle.  But making a whole new set of tees for that is overkill.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2018, 06:40:08 PM »

The club have sensibly in my mind introduced a very forward tee on the far side of the broken ground area at the start of the fairway.
This provides a playing option for a lessor length/strength/ability player whilst not effecting others. They have also done the same on a few other holes.





As one who is not an advocate for multiple SETS of tees, I am all for the soluton mentioned above, and/or as Tom says, a few hidden "super" back tees.
You just don't need a 5 sets of tees on EVERY hole.




So back to the original thread title,
Multiple tees ARE an architectural copout
so many ways to challenge better players while allowing lower club speed players ways to enjoy the game with the occasional thrill.
greens open in front, less forced carries (see above) greens and approaches that run away.
Most of the time, modern courses that have 6 sets of tees are still a nightmare for lower clubhead speed players (deep bunkers, carries, hazards in front of greens, shite on both sides, OB, water, super tight lies... etc.)-"but just play the right tees"
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 07:46:28 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2018, 08:18:59 PM »
Tom,
Nothing wrong maybe once or twice a week on an afternoon playing all the holes as one-shotters. 


Jeff,
You would be surprised how many golfers enjoy that option.  Few will do it on there own but when the pro shop prints out a scorecard for the day noting the hole distances, people take to it.  Many just take carts to save the walks.  I hate to break this to you but like it or not, most golfers play golf with carts anyway.


Niall,
Course length increases acerage and subsequently the cost of golf.  It also adds to the time it takes to play the round. 


One further point; if you want to improve your golf game (and just add some variety and a different challenge) try playing your home course or any course for that matter, from different distances/different teeing locations.  You will experience shots you might have never played before.  Golf doesn’t have to be monotonous 😉
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 07:40:26 AM by Mark_Fine »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2018, 07:58:16 AM »
Mark

With regards to your suggestion that course length increases acreage and subsequently cost, I’d question whether adding a forward tee is going to help with that. To my mind the cause of the biggest increase in acreage is the idea that fairways should be super-wide to allow players to swing away freely with their drivers. I’m certainly not advocating narrow fairways but neither do we need excessively wide ones. Compared to wide fairways sticking a “championship” tee back in the boondocks on the odd hole makes no difference particularly if you retain the carry.

Obviously longer courses will take more time to play than shorter ones. That has ever been the case. What is relatively new, over here at any rate, is the fannying about that goes on that I referred to in my earlier post. So while the total time taken is part of the issue, it’s the moments during the round where you are waiting about because of piss-poor etiquette is the real pain.

As for variety I’m fortunate to play most of my golf on links courses. Ground conditions and weather conditions conspire to ensure that no round is monotonous. A hole can easily be a drive and a short iron one day and a driver and two fairway woods the next. That’s the nature of the beast. And as Tom D pointed out with his Pete Dye comment, us ordinary mortals can easily find ourselves anywhere on the golf course anyway due to our limited ability.

Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2018, 08:28:47 AM »
Again...how many of these superwide fairway courses are there?  I think there are so few as to be stastically such a small percentage as to be a complete non-factor.  In the big scheme of things, superwide fairways ain't the reason for more acreage.  Man, people seem to getting down on a super mini-trend like its the evil of golf.  Perhaps reasonably wide fairways has increased acreage in recent years, but rightfully so and there are, I am guessing, hundreds upon hundreds of courses that should be wider.  Narrow golf combined with stupid rough and 4ball play adds more time to a round than anything. Sure, people faff about, aren't ready to play, park their bag in stupid places, go look for balls before hitting their own ball etc etc.  Places allowing public play, can realistically do little about this, but how a course is set up is completely in the control of management. 

So far as architecture, there is no question in my mind that courses designed for 2-3 sets of tees and focusing on tee width rather than tee length are in a better position to get people around the course quicker while still providing challenge .  It may not entail a huge amount big driver challenge, but there are plenty of courses for those who want space to blast loads of drives 300+ yards.  That isn't to suggest that some tees don't need to be well forward of back tees simply because of harsh carries.  But generally, there doesn't need to be a huge spread of tees covering par 3 length distances. 

While a full set of mega forward tees may sound like a great idea, don't forget the walk that is required to play these tees...tons of dead ground which in the end will encourage cart play...which imo is not clever for the long term health of good design. Other than for harsh forced carries, mega forward tees should only really be built if there is a compelling shot from that spot.  I see loads of these mega forward tees at the start of fairways which offer a dead boring tee shot after a huge walk to get there...its stupid.  Total inclusion seems to be the goal these days when interesting shots tailored to specific markets should be the goal.  All courses can't be all things to all people. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2018, 10:11:56 AM »
While a full set of mega forward tees may sound like a great idea, don't forget the walk that is required to play these tees...tons of dead ground which in the end will encourage cart play...which imo is not clever for the long term health of good design.

With due respect, at least on this side of the pond, factors other than "dead ground" resulting from more formal teeing areas encourage cart play.  My home course of over 20 years had a very tight, easy to walk routing- less than 5 miles, and cart usage was probably close to 90%.

I just played the Scarlet course at Ohio State and from the second set of tees, it was just over a 5 mile walk.  When I was a student there in the '70s, riding carts (really fast gas-powered Harley-Davidsons) were seldom used.   According to the pro, over 40% of rounds are on carts now, which if you take out all the student and the many walking-only competition rounds, it would be well over 50% in a northern climate.

The bottom line is that most golfers and golf course operators like carts.  Particularly on existing courses, adding tees to provide more options for a wider range of golfers also makes sense for most everyone concerned.  It can be done inexpensively without tearing up the course or adding walking distance- use hybrid tees to fill in the large 400+ yard gaps where possible; find flat spots forward or minimally prepare them at grade.

   

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2018, 11:05:22 AM »

One thing strikes me in this discussion is the use of "forward tees."


Way back, we used to design from the middle tees.  We started using back tees as a starting point on real estate courses, because the land planners kept nipping the 30 yards behind the "Tee Point" so putting the hole centerline on back tees was a necessity. I suppose the awards era had something to do with it as well.


Short version, we should probably start thinking in terms of men, seniors and women's tees again (the last one being politically incorrect of course) and then discuss whether we should add back tees, no? :-\
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2018, 01:11:14 PM »
Sweet Lou

If the terrain is suitable for walking, archies have two choices.  They can design for carts or design for walking.  Because people choose to ride on courses which are very walkable, does that then mean archies should design new courses to ride?  I don't follow your logic, if that is your logic. 

One of the best ways to promote golf and thus recruit golfers, is to emphasize the health aspects of walking.  That can only be done if courses are a reasonable walk.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2018, 01:30:01 PM »
Sean

Yes, you don’t get too many Castle Stuarts to the pound. However just think that a lot of golden age era courses (in the UK) were built on sites that were often 100 acres or less. I’m going to guess and say that a typical new build course today would require c. 150 acres ?

There’s plenty of gca’s on here who can keep me right on that but assuming I’m broadly correct, is the 50% increase in area down to a 50% increase in length in the average course or is it down to the requirement for additional width per hole (width including fairway, semi, rough etc) ? In saying that I appreciate that in these days of health and safety the old distances between centres of parallel fairways aren’t going to happen on a new course.

In terms of running costs, surely cutting the fairway 10 yards wider will cost more than sticking an extra back tee in on a few holes, particularly where it won’t change where the fairway starts ?

Niall

Peter Pallotta

Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2018, 03:27:27 PM »
Is the architect-the course supposed to accommodate itself to golfers, or should golfers be asked to accommodate themselves to the course?
I suppose the former makes the most business sense, but the latter seems to be more in keeping with the traditions/spirit of the game.
When the game's not growing and money isn't being made as readily as in the past, it's easy for the business rationale to become the greater priority (even if clients & architects don't acknowledge that); but perhaps it isn't the best approach, even strictly financially, in the longer term, i.e. when you open the door to, and indeed promote & celebrate, the design accommodating itself to as many golfers -- and their expectations -- as possible, there'll soon enough be an ever-growing list of new (and costly & expensive to maintain) expectations to be met.
As an old Hollywood exec said in describing the difference between movie-making's golden age and its modern age: "Back then it was all about money, which was okay because you could always satisfy greed; but today it's about money and *ego*...and there's no satisfying ego".
Is it a coincidence that some of the most highly rated and expensive resort courses have 5 & 6 sets of tees? I don't think so: when folks are paying $200 to play and several times that amount in food and lodging, it's not surprising that they expect/demand that the course accommodate itself to them. And it's not surprising either that modest courses/price points are now all rushing to follow suit.     
Peter
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 03:40:56 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Multiple Tees: An Architectural Cop-Out?
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2018, 03:43:43 PM »
If the terrain is suitable for walking, archies have two choices.  They can design for carts or design for walking.  Because people choose to ride on courses which are very walkable, does that then mean archies should design new courses to ride?  I don't follow your logic, if that is your logic. 

One of the best ways to promote golf and thus recruit golfers, is to emphasize the health aspects of walking.  That can only be done if courses are a reasonable walk.

First of all, there are very few new courses being built in the U.S. and Europe.  I have zero doubt that closings will continue to far outpace new construction for many years (wait until the Boomers can no longer play for physical or economic reasons).

I was primarily addressing existing courses in the U.S. , many which have or will be undergoing considerable updating, and in the context of providing multiple tees to satisfy the needs of a larger range of golfers.  There are some existing courses with enough elasticity, but I am not advocating adding sets of formalized back tees (though an occasional rudimentary "monster" tee for a special competition might be ok).

The choice of the architect in some cases is not binary.  Depending on the purpose of the course (say to sell residential lots), site characteristics, and regulatory requirements, it may not be possible to build an easily walkable course.  But I can think of few instances in my part of the country where it would make sense not to include carts in the design.

Whether we like it or not, at least in my region, if carts are not available, golfers will not play.  Even requiring carts to stay on the paths dampens demand.

If I was an owner or an investor, I would want my course to be desirable by all types of golfers.  I would expect my architect to design a course which serves the most, including providing for the use of carts on an easily walkable routing (which would always be my choice if golf was the sole purpose for the course).  I don't see where the logic is missing here.

As to the health aspects, I offer my son as an example of someone who is reasonably smart, very fit, and fairly representative of his Millennial group.  He typically rides a cart on easily walkable courses and works out three or four times each week.  We can extol the virtues of walking 'til the cows come home, but like with politics and so many other things, conversions are likely to be few.  Ultra-high pricing, say $40+ per half cart, is about the only impediment I can think of that might bend the curve.  It is not by accident that caddie programs are dead pretty much anywhere they are not mandatory since the advent of the $80+/bag middle-age professional caddie.


   


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