Country club relocations?

[Tommy Williamsen]

It certainly is not unusual for clubs to relocate. I was a member at The CC at Woodmore (Prince George's CC) which relocated in the 80's. The old site was a wonderful Ross layout and even held a Women's National Open.

You must have been thinking of something else when you typed this.  PGCC was a Wm Flynn design, originally Beaver Dam CC. I visited the site 15 years ago and a few of Flynn's holes were still visible.

Craig, PGCC was designed by Ross in 1921 and opened in 1923. It did begin life as Beaver Dam until 1941. There were rumors that Flynn was involved but I can't find it.


https://www.ccwoodmore.com/about-us

Is don't know where the information on the Ross connection came from. An article in the Washington Post in 1923 attributed the original 9-hole course on the site to a collaboration between Emmet and Frank james from the Chevy Chase Club. Flynn's drawings and a site plan from the 1920s exist and perfectly match a 1937 aerial. Ross was active in DC, particularly at the excellent Indian Spring CC, and it's possible he may have held some discussions on the Beaver Dam/PGCC property but I haven't seen any evidence that he contributed to the design.

Craig, I checked Whitten's Architects of Golf and the Donald Ross society and they both attribute the course to Ross. According to Wayne Morrison, Flynn did do some work on the course in 1927. Nothing in the course history, that I ever heard, attributed the course to him, however.

[Craig Disher]

Craig, I checked Whitten's Architects of Golf and the Donald Ross society and they both attribute the course to Ross.

As useful as the AoG is, it does contain some errors. The Ross Society receives a lot of their information from the Tufts Archives which has one article from 1921 connecting Ross to the course. I'll see if I can get a copy. Even if he was responsible for the early 9-hole course rather than Emmet/Frank, it was gone by the late 1920s and replaced by Flynn's design.

[Jim Sherma]

Relocation of older clubs seems common in the northeast. Another interesting question would be what old clubs (pre 1900 or 1910) are still on their original site. Adding to the list of clubs that are not on their original site:


Baltimore CC
Hillendale CC
CC of Harrisburg
Colonial CC (Harrisburg)


Two clubs that I can think of that have starting dates pre-1900 and remain on their original sites:
Elkridge Fox Hunt Club GC
Northampton CC (Easton, PA)

[Tommy Williamsen]

Craig, I checked Whitten's Architects of Golf and the Donald Ross society and they both attribute the course to Ross.

As useful as the AoG is, it does contain some errors. The Ross Society receives a lot of their information from the Tufts Archives which has one article from 1921 connecting Ross to the course. I'll see if I can get a copy. Even if he was responsible for the early 9-hole course rather than Emmet/Frank, it was gone by the late 1920s and replaced by Flynn's design.

Interesting. If this is true, I wonder why Flynn disappeared from the lore of the club. When I joined in 1985, the old timers talked about their love affair with the old "Ross" course.

[Dean DiBerardino]

The Winding Hollow Golf Club sold its original golf course to the City of Columbus in 1988. The club was founded in 1921 and Robert Trent Jones, Sr. expanded their golf course to 18 holes in 1948.  The golf course was renamed Champions Golf Course in 1991 by the City of Columbus.

The members relocated to New Albany, not far from The Golf Club, and purchased 192 acres of property from Les Wexner. They hired Arthur Hills to build their new 18-hole course. The new Winding Hollow G.C. opened in 1992. It struggled financially, eventually became public and then closed.

Ironically, the original RTJ Champions Golf Course is still open and one of Les Wexner’s companies owns the New Albany land again.

[Dean DiBerardino]

delete

[Kalen Braley]

In light of all the responses, perhaps a better question is "Which Golden Age club hasn't moved at least once!" 


Salt Lake CC has moved at least once I know of and reconfigured once due to a freeway build...

[John McCarthy]

Twin Orchard moved from what is now O'Hare Airport to the current location in Long Grove, IL.  It is memorialized in the ORD designation.  (Orchard, ORD).


Ridgemoor CC was Irving Park Country Club located at Addison and Pulaski. 

[Mike Hendren]

Nashville’s Richland CC moved in the 1980’s from a close in location off West End Avenue to a hilly site off Granny White Pike. Amy Alcott had won the Women’s U. S. Open at the Ross course in 1980. That site was re-developed into high end single-family residences and Nicklaus designed and built its replacement. Early on there were construction issues given the severity of the site.

[Joe Bausch]

In Phildelphia alone,

Famously:
Merion
Philadelphia Country Club
Aronimink
Huntingdon Valley
Philadelphia Cricket Club (acquired land for a new golf course, older course now nine holes)

Less famously:
Sunnybrook
Cedarbrook
St. David's
White Manor (older course now the lovely Paxon Hollow)

I think the majority of these relocations were because valuable leases ran out on the old properties - which were mostly still within the confines of the City of Philadelphia - and the club bought new land.

Not coincidental to this is the fact that almost all of these courses had some member of the so-called "Philadelphia School" working on the new projects. Sunnybrook and Cedarbrook subsequently moved again to their current sites.

A couple of others from the DelVal:


Wilmington CC
Green Valley

[Craig Disher]

Craig, I checked Whitten's Architects of Golf and the Donald Ross society and they both attribute the course to Ross. According to Wayne Morrison, Flynn did do some work on the course in 1927. Nothing in the course history, that I ever heard, attributed the course to him, however.

If you talked to Wayne I'm surprised he'd call Flynn's contribution "some work." Every hole for which there is Flynn drawing is exactly the same as what is seen on the 1937 aerial. I looked in the DC papers between 1921 and 1923 and the only mention of Ross is his planning and work on Indian Spring CC - which was originally called Silver Spring CC and has caused some to believe that they were different courses. AOG makes that mistake. If he had been working at Beaver Dam, I believe it would have been mentioned as Ross was actively participating in tournaments around DC and his work at Pinehurst was often cited. I think the simplest and most logical description of the club's history and based on the documentation available is that a 9-hole course of unknown provenance, constructed in  1923, was replaced by Wm Flynn in 1927. I'm still waiting to hear from the Tufts Archives on the material they have which might indicate some early Ross influence on the 9-hole course - or perhaps consultation with the club on expanding it. But at this point it's hard to refute that they finally decided on Flynn, club histories notwithstanding. It's also a fact that Flynn was in DC in the 1926-7 timeframe working on the public course at Rock Creek Park and the private Manor CC.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Craig, I checked Whitten's Architects of Golf and the Donald Ross society and they both attribute the course to Ross. According to Wayne Morrison, Flynn did do some work on the course in 1927. Nothing in the course history, that I ever heard, attributed the course to him, however.

If you talked to Wayne I'm surprised he'd call Flynn's contribution "some work." Every hole for which there is Flynn drawing is exactly the same as what is seen on the 1937 aerial. I looked in the DC papers between 1921 and 1923 and the only mention of Ross is his planning and work on Indian Spring CC - which was originally called Silver Spring CC and has caused some to believe that they were different courses. AOG makes that mistake. If he had been working at Beaver Dam, I believe it would have been mentioned as Ross was actively participating in tournaments around DC and his work at Pinehurst was often cited. I think the simplest and most logical description of the club's history and based on the documentation available is that a 9-hole course of unknown provenance, constructed in  1923, was replaced by Wm Flynn in 1927. I'm still waiting to hear from the Tufts Archives on the material they have which might indicate some early Ross influence on the 9-hole course - or perhaps consultation with the club on expanding it. But at this point it's hard to refute that they finally decided on Flynn, club histories notwithstanding. It's also a fact that Flynn was in DC in the 1926-7 timeframe working on the public course at Rock Creek Park and the private Manor CC.

You're better at this than I am. I did not speak with Wayne but saw a list of Flynn courses he posted on GCA. It is fascinating how histories can become muddled. I was the founding pastor and continued with them for 34 years. Even our young congregation gets it wrong sometimes. I had member who was the oral historian for the Navy. His job was to try and get the history correct. It can be tricky. Thanks for your work.

[Pat Alpaugh]

The Hamilton Golf & Country Club has moved twice.  The Brantford Golf & Country Club has moved at least twice.

[Pat Burke]

http://www.deepdalegolfclub.com/history.html


Always thought this was an interesting thing when I was a kid

[V. Kmetz]

Some other interesting Met area ones...


Fresh Meadow, NY - can't recalll the story of when and where the move occurred, or if the old site is being used for any golf or bone-carrying.


Fairview NY/CT... three moves from original Tuckahoe/Mt. Vernon site (which also spawned Siwanoy)...first to Elmsford in 1908-9, across the street from that newer Elmsford site in 1912...then more than 50 years at that second Elmwood site, until the move to Greenwich in 1968. Probably the only one that moved to a new state. There's some excllent historical aerial imagery of the 56 year Elmsford (II) site, which was when Fairview enjoyed its greatest reputation, as it was the spawning home of the famous Turnesa brothers (and offspring), one of America's leading golf families.


Century NY - in 1922, gave up what is the current Metropolis (H.Strong) course, for the current Colt/Allison finery in Purchase. The Metropolis course, though decidely altered from the original Strong work, is probably the only one of these that has extant bones of what used to be there...


St Andrews NY - Technically, this early patriarch, is on it's 5th site, the first four being in Yonkers...there was the Reid 3 hole course of the famous Washington's birthday in 1888; then, when play resumed in the Fall, they made a 6-hole course "The Shonnard course," in a butcher's field NW of where they played in February.  (This Shonnard course is where a very homely, decrepit and rather anonymous plaque announces the "First Golf Club" in America legend.) Then, when Palisades Avenue was extended through the Shonnard course, they moved about 1/3rd of a mile NNE to the famed Apple Tree 6 holer on the Weston estate, which was played over the most severe slope you can imagine... They then moved NE about 1 mile to the Odell Farm course, which also was steep slope on the far side of the Saw Mill River Valley; this was where that contested US National Amateur Championship was played (the first? that CBM disputed and caused the USGA to be formed)... Then finally to the Mt Hope/Hastings site (again on the most ridcilous hill you can believe) in 1897, renovated utterly by Nicklaus in 1980.  None of the first four exist.


***St Andrews Bonus "Move"*** - Saegkill/Hudson River CC - when ST. Andrews moved from the Apple Tree course to the Odell Farm course, an off-shoot club of St. Andrews' women was erected two miles due North of the Apple Tree course -  as the men moved about mile NNE. This was Saegkill, which looks like it was first, a 6 -holer, then 9, unti lthe first World War (about 20 years as a ladies golf club) when it was converted to a traditional club called Hudson River CC, which lasted until 1968...an 18 hole Ross that (having both seen the historic aerials and growing up near the property) must have been stunning...people familiar with Yonkers or travelling on Westchester's famed Saw Mill Parkway will note the large water tower in North Yonkers that looms over Executive Drive... that Tower was the dead center of the property, located directly in the middle of what was the 7th fairway.

[Jeff Evagues]

Some other interesting Met area ones...


Fresh Meadow, NY - can't recalll the story of when and where the move occurred, or if the old site is being used for any golf or bone-carrying.


Fairview NY/CT... three moves from original Tuckahoe/Mt. Vernon site (which also spawned Siwanoy)...first to Elmsford in 1908-9, across the street from that newer Elmsford site in 1912...then more than 50 years at that second Elmwood site, until the move to Greenwich in 1968. Probably the only one that moved to a new state. There's some excllent historical aerial imagery of the 56 year Elmsford (II) site, which was when Fairview enjoyed its greatest reputation, as it was thespawning home of the famous Turnesa brothers (and offspring), one of America's leading golf families.


Century NY - in 1922, gave up what is the current Metropolis (H.Strong) course, to the current Colt/Allison finery in Purchase. The Metropolis course, though decidely altered from the original Strong work, is probably the only one of these that has extant bones of what used to be there...


St Andrews NY - Technically, this early patriarch, is on it's 5th site, the first four being in Yonkers...there was the Reid 3 hole course of the famous Washington's birthday in 1888; then, when play resumed in the Fall, they made a 6-hole course "The Shonnard course" in a butcher's field NW of the February play.  (The Shonnard course is where a very homely, decrepit and rather anonymous plaque announces the "First Gold Club" in America legend. Then, when Palisades avebue was extended through the Shonnard course, they about 1/3rd of a mile NNE to the famed Apple Tree 6 holer on the Weston estate, which was played over the most severe slop you can imagine... They then moved NE about 1 mile to the Odell Farm course, which too was steep slope on the far side of the Saw Mill River valley; this was where that contested US National Amateur Championship was played (the first? that CBM disputed and caused the USGA to be formed)... Then finally to the Mt Hope/Hastings site (again on the most ridcilous hill you can believe) in 1897, renovated utterly by Nicklaus in 1980.  None of the first four exist.


***St Andrews Bonus "Move"*** - Saegkill/Hudson River CC - when ST. Andrews moved from the Apple Tree course to the Odell Farm course, an off-shoot club of St. Andrews women was erected two miles due North of the Apple Tree course as the men moved about mile NNE. This was Saegkill, which looks like it was 6 -holes, then 9, unti lthe first World War (about 20 years as a ladies golf club) when it was converted to a traditional club called Hudson River CC, which lasted until 1968...an 18 hole Ross that (having both seen the historic aerials and growing up near the property) must have been stunning...people familiar with Yonkers or travelling on Westchester's famed Saw Mill parkway will note the large water tower in North Yonkers that looms over Executive Drive... that Tower was the dead center of the property, located directly in the middle of what was the 7th fairway.

The original Fresh Meadow is now the Long Island Expressway.

[Chad Anderson (Tennessee)]

In TN:


Richland Country Club moved from West End to Brentwood.
CC of Bristol doesn't have it's original 18 holes as it changed locations as well.  It is one of the oldest clubs, if not the oldest in TN.


TN isn't as densely populated so I'm guessing we don't have as many that have moved due to that?

[Jeff Schley]

Twin Orchard moved from what is now O'Hare Airport to the current location in Long Grove, IL.  It is memorialized in the ORD designation.  (Orchard, ORD).


Ridgemoor CC was Irving Park Country Club located at Addison and Pulaski.

I'm sure what you meant was that the ORD was a holdover of the town which was Orchard Place, not the golf course. I believe it was a military airport where they changed it from Orchard something (can't recall) to O'Hare for a famous pilot in WWII Butch O'Hare.

[Steve Lang]

I always wondered where ORD came from...  interesting...  thanks

[Craig Disher]

Craig, I checked Whitten's Architects of Golf and the Donald Ross society and they both attribute the course to Ross. According to Wayne Morrison, Flynn did do some work on the course in 1927. Nothing in the course history, that I ever heard, attributed the course to him, however.

If you talked to Wayne I'm surprised he'd call Flynn's contribution "some work." Every hole for which there is Flynn drawing is exactly the same as what is seen on the 1937 aerial. I looked in the DC papers between 1921 and 1923 and the only mention of Ross is his planning and work on Indian Spring CC - which was originally called Silver Spring CC and has caused some to believe that they were different courses. AOG makes that mistake. If he had been working at Beaver Dam, I believe it would have been mentioned as Ross was actively participating in tournaments around DC and his work at Pinehurst was often cited. I think the simplest and most logical description of the club's history and based on the documentation available is that a 9-hole course of unknown provenance, constructed in  1923, was replaced by Wm Flynn in 1927. I'm still waiting to hear from the Tufts Archives on the material they have which might indicate some early Ross influence on the 9-hole course - or perhaps consultation with the club on expanding it. But at this point it's hard to refute that they finally decided on Flynn, club histories notwithstanding. It's also a fact that Flynn was in DC in the 1926-7 timeframe working on the public course at Rock Creek Park and the private Manor CC.

You're better at this than I am. I did not speak with Wayne but saw a list of Flynn courses he posted on GCA. It is fascinating how histories can become muddled. I was the founding pastor and continued with them for 34 years. Even our young congregation gets it wrong sometimes. I had member who was the oral historian for the Navy. His job was to try and get the history correct. It can be tricky. Thanks for your work.

Not better - only closer to the issue at hand having lived in DC for so many years. The Tufts just sent me what they had and it's a 1980 article from the PG County Journal discussing the move of PGCC to their new site. The author goes on over several paragraphs about Donald Ross, his national reputation, and makes a simple declaration that he was the designer. I assume he received the information from the club. Discovering Donald Ross also lists it as a Ross course but with no proof of a visit or the existence of design plans. I think that puts the story to rest. I also looked at all the Flynn drawings and all 18 holes match the 1937 aerial. Clearly, Flynn's 1927 course replaced something that dated back to 1921 or 1922 - and it's the same course PGCC walked away from in 1980. Margin notes on a couple of the drawings mention alterations to the existing hole so it's possible some features of the old course were used. We'll probably never know that for certain. I'm also sorry for hijacking this thread, but there you go.

[Mike Hendren]

In TN:


Richland Country Club moved from West End to Brentwood.
CC of Bristol doesn't have it's original 18 holes as it changed locations as well.  It is one of the oldest clubs, if not the oldest in TN.


TN isn't as densely populated so I'm guessing we don't have as many that have moved due to that?

Chad, Woodmont Country Club was a old Jewish club with a 9 holes course on what is today Sugartree subdivision off Woodmont Blvd. in West Nashville.  The club moved to Franklin in 1977 or so and is today known as Old Natchez CC - perhaps an Ault & Clark design.

Memphis' Colonial Country Club moved out east to Cordova in 1972 with two new courses designed by Joe Finger.  The South Course hosted the Danny Thomas Memphis Classis and in 1977 was the site of President Gerald Ford's hole-in-one and Al Geiberger's 59 (lift, clean and place)  The club closed the north course for financial reasons and sold the property to a membership group.  I know Curtis Strange has been on site looking at renovating the South. 

btw I live in downtown Franklin so we'll need to grab some lunch.  Give my regards to Dick Horton.

[Mike Hendren]

Ridgeway CC in Memphis moved at about the same time as Colonial.   Cornish & Whitten attribute the new course to Ellis Maples and Ed Seay.   They also indicate that both Colonial and Ridgeway vacated courses by William Langford - dammit.  That makes sense as Langford also designed Chickasaw in Memphis, though I'm told little of his work remains there.  I've long suspected that Jackson (TN) CC was originally laid out and designed by Langford as well but many of the tell-tale features have been lost to renovation since I competed in tournaments there in the 70's. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Ridgeway CC in Memphis moved at about the same time as Colonial.   Cornish & Whitten attribute the new course to Ellis Maples and Ed Seay.   They also indicate that both Colonial and Ridgeway vacated courses by William Langford - dammit.  That makes sense as Langford also designed Chickasaw in Memphis, though I'm told little of his work remains there.  I've long suspected that Jackson (TN) CC was originally laid out and designed by Langford as well but many of the tell-tale features have been lost to renovation since I competed in tournaments there in the 70's.

Jackson was a Bendelow 9 holer dating back to 1914 with Hugh Miller, who helped to build Chickasaw, arriving in the late 1920's to expand the course.

[Phil Lipper]

Hackensack Country Club was originally located in Hackensack NJ, it moved to Oradell NJ and had Banks do the new design.
Siwanoy Country Club in Westchester was originally a 9 hole club I believe in Mt Vernon and eventually moved to the current Broxville location.

[Craig Disher]

Columbia Country Club near DC moved a couple of times in the early 1900s. Before relocating to Chevy Chase, MD, the club was located in NE DC. Their clubhouse and course was taken over by a newly formed Jewish club, Town & Country, which left in 1921 and moved to property in Bethesda. They remained there until pressure to expand NIH led them to purchase property near Rockville where they moved in the late 1940s. During their stay at the NIH site, the members renamed the club Woodmont CC which is how they are still known. After T&C left the NE DC site, it was grabbed by a new club for a year. That club became Argyle CC and moved to a 9-hole site just west of the original Indian Spring CC. Real estate and I495 planning drove both clubs to new territory in Montgomery County. Argyle still thrives but the 36-hole Wm Gordon Indian Spring club is now a real estate development. Lastly - the Argyle site was taken over by the county park department and after I495 cut through part of it, the county built the 9-hole Sligo Creek course on part of Argyle's original land. And nearby, the original Indian Spring clubhouse still stands, surrounded by a small park and overlooking the walls next to the 8-lane I495.