[Eric Smith]

No way, Finn - I didn't know that post was you! All I see is "Tilly" listed as the author. Wish I could unread a lot of those posts but cat's out of the bag.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

… practice is a function of ones desire to improve one's game not about enjoyment of the game…

I feel differently. It's one of the ways in which I most enjoy the game.

If this is not your idea of golf that is fine but understand that there are other equally valid reasons for playing the game, like for fun.

I think the problem is that Ran's comments came without the "equally valid reasons" statement, as if he was judging others. In fact, he made a comment about judging someone who asked for a score on the first hole or something, something about misjudging the character of the fellow.

It comes off poorly, in the opinions of many at NLU.

[Brian Finn]

No way, Finn - I didn't know that post was you! All I see is "Tilly" listed as the author. Wish I could unread a lot of those posts but cat's out of the bag.

You can click on anyone's profile to get more info.  In my case, I do use my real name, as I think that is an important aspect of being taken seriously on a public forum (even if you think my opinions are crap).  I'm not ashamed of anything I said over there.  I have really enjoyed participating in that forum for the past several months.  There are quite a few gca regulars over there, actually.
As that post and all of my subsequent posts would hopefully make clear, I have the utmost respect for Ran and everything he has done for golf and gca, but don't necessarily agree with everything he says, especially lately.  I did finally listen to the podcast, twice, and I was much less impressed than with anything I've ever read from Ran.  Perhaps that is not his best medium.  But, my opinion means so little in the grand scheme that I feel odd even writing this.  Just trying to be transparent.

[Eric Smith]

You can click on anyone's profile to get more info. 

I see that, thanks. And my comment about unseeing posts wasn't meant to impugn yours solely, the sheer # of others on there who claim Ran is trying to tell people how to play, yet the "Burning Carts League" gets a pass, doesn't really make a lot of sense.

[John Kavanaugh]

Instead of posting new and interesting photographs of golf holes on the home page Ran should post a weekly meme. How else will he bring new budding golf loving enthusiasts to the game?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

And my comment about unseeing posts wasn't meant to impugn yours solely, the sheer # of others on there who claim Ran is trying to tell people how to play…

By saying "claim" are you saying that he didn't "tell others how to play" (or "how to enjoy golf" or other similar things)?

[Eric Smith]

By saying "claim" are you saying that he didn't "tell others how to play" (or "how to enjoy golf" or other similar things)?

Erik,
Did you listen to the podcast? I didn't hear him tell me to do anything.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Erik,
Did you listen to the podcast? I didn't hear him tell me to do anything.

I did, and while he didn't TELL YOU to do things, he made clear his opinion on people who do a number of things like "post to GHIN" or whatever.

If you want to claim a victory on the specific language of "telling others," go ahead. You earned it. But the general complaint is that he's saying that others are not enjoying golf the "proper way" if they're not doing it the way he said.

Do you disagree with that?

[Eric Smith]

Erik,
Did you listen to the podcast? I didn't hear him tell me to do anything.

I did, and while he didn't TELL YOU to do things, he made clear his opinion on people who do a number of things like "post to GHIN" or whatever.

Most every take Ran had, Andy says, basically, 'yeah, yeah, me too'.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Most every take Ran had, Andy says, basically, 'yeah, yeah, me too'.

That didn't answer my question. I'm not asking about whether Andy has ever, ever challenged any guest on anything they've said.

[Eric Smith]

Most every take Ran had, Andy says, basically, 'yeah, yeah, me too'.

That didn't answer my question. I'm not asking about whether Andy has ever, ever challenged any guest on anything they've said.

What question? Listen, I'm not claiming an 'internet victory' I could care less. I thought the podcast was good and I enjoyed it.


Erik, you do realize you are promoting your business interests in every post you make here? Why not thank Ran and let this one go, Pro.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

What question? Listen, I'm not claiming an 'internet victory' I could care less. I thought the podcast was good and I enjoyed it. p

The one that preceded the question mark. Here it is again:

The complaint is that he's saying that others are not enjoying golf the "proper way" if they're not doing it the way he says (i.e. no scorekeeping, no GHIN, practicing is for chumps, would rather not play than play a bad course, etc. etc.).

Do you disagree with that? Do you disagree that he said those things and effectively judged others and said "they're playing or enjoying golf the wrong way"?

Why not thank Ran and let this one go, Pro.

Am I not allowed to mildly disagree with the posts of others?


Edit: I've thanked Ran a number of times, have contributed financially every year I've been a member here, and generally have recommended and spoken highly of Ran and GCA on multiple occasions. I simply don't think this was a great podcast, and I didn't like and/or disagree with many of the things he said in the podcast. Not nearly as much as many at NLU seem to have, but enough to post about it a little.

[John Kavanaugh]

Erik,


I had two balls hit the pin and bounce out this weekend. Thanks, but no thanks.

[Brian Finn]

Ran definitely didn't tell anyone what to do.  He shared certain aspects of how he prefers to enjoy the game, and many people interpreted that as "preaching" the only way to play is the way he does so.  It's hard (impossible?) to be objective, but I can see where those critics are coming from.  At the same time, I thought it was implicit throughout that Ran was saying these things under the umbrella of, "this is what is right for me, and everyone else has a right to do what is right for them when they play golf."  I think those with previous exposure to Ran would likely give him the benefit of the doubt, but I can very much see where those who have never heard of him (or this site) would assume otherwise.  Virtually everyone involved in these discussions are good people who are very passionate about golf.  The nuances of how and why they are passionate make the discussions more interesting, when we allow it.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Ran definitely didn't tell anyone what to do.  He shared certain aspects of how he prefers to enjoy the game, and many people interpreted that as "preaching" the only way to play is the way he does so.  It's hard (impossible?) to be objective, but I can see where those critics are coming from.  At the same time, I thought it was implicit throughout that Ran was saying these things under the umbrella of, "this is what is right for me, and everyone else has a right to do what is right for them when they play golf."  I think those with previous exposure to Ran would likely give him the benefit of the doubt, but I can very much see where those who have never heard of him (or this site) would assume otherwise.  Virtually everyone involved in these discussions are good people who are very passionate about golf.  The nuances of how and why they are passionate make the discussions more interesting, when we allow it.

That's generally how I took it. I remember questioning a few things while listening to it, then moved on as soon as the podcast ended. Then I saw the NLU topic, and saw that others were taking it differently. They were taking it as having judgment passed on them for not enjoying golf the "right way" or something. And, I think it can come off that way a number of times, even if you aren't looking to be offended.


Like I've said, I assume Ran either misspoke a bit, or was unclear about that these were his personal feelings and that he didn't care (if it's true) how other people enjoy the game.

[Eric Smith]

Erik,


You go to the extreme when it isn’t necessary. Disagree all you like that’s encouraged here. The posts over there get pretty personal and they’re all whipped up over this podcast.


My approach to golf is much the same as Ran describes it is for him. I play some holes and sometimes I eat chicken tikka on the veranda. What I don’t do is tell others not to ride or not to walk or carry double straps. I think that is annoying.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

You go to the extreme when it isn’t necessary.

What extreme? I don't even know what you're talking about. I haven't gone to any extreme here.

The posts over there get pretty personal and they’re all whipped up over this podcast.

Some do. Mine don't. I'd say anything I said there here and vice versa.

My approach to golf is much the same as Ran describes it is for him. I play some holes and sometimes I eat chicken tikka on the veranda. What I don’t do is tell others not to ride or not to walk or carry double straps. I think that is annoying.

Do you deny that Ran came off as judging others - even a little bit - in the podcast? You've dodged the question multiple times now.

I think it was a poor "look" for him, so to speak. I think (hope?) he's generally not as judgmental as he came off in the podcast.

That's it. That's the entirety of it for me. I think Ran came off poorly, in contrast to some of the initial posts in this topic. My opinion of Ran was not bolstered by the podcast.

I don't even care enough about this topic to go download the podcast at this point to re-listen to stuff, but I care enough to clearly state my opinion(s) here, and to point out the opinions of others. And I'm doing so without endorsing every opinion over there at the Refuge.

[Jim Hoak]

I think the issue here is the same as the reaction to the "147 Custodians" discussion.  My first reaction to that piece was to disagree, since the "Custodians" list was only accurate if you agreed with Ran's list of criteria for what constitutes a Custodian.  Despite my respect for all that Ran has done--on this site and elsewhere--I didn't agree with his criteria; believing that many other clubs have done far more for the good of the game, as I define it, than those he listed.  But I certainly don't begrudge his right to have his criteria--or his list.  So long as he respects my right to have my own list.  I have no reason to believe he doesn't.

[Eric Smith]

Erik,


Yes, I deny.


Thank you.

Eric Smith
6th Place
1986 Smoky Mountain Prep Invitational

[Jim Hoak]

Maybe not totally central to this discussion, but I want to put in a good word for the GHIN, and handicapping, system.  If someone never plans to play in any club tournament, or never tries to play me for $5 in a friendly bet, I have no problem with his not posting scores--or maintaining a true handicap.  But I happen personally to believe that honest handicaps are a core fundamental to the game of golf as I enjoy playing it.  I am sick and tired of phony handicaps, and I have sworn off most Member-Guest tournaments because of it.
And it isn't true that posting a score for handicap purposes is inconsistent with Match Play, or slows down play.  The GHIN system allows--even requires--that all Match Play scores be posted.  You do not need to hole out to take a score for handicap posting.  Estimating the most likely score is allowed (consistent with the allowed maximum), including picking up a meaningless putt and counting one or two shots, whichever is most likely.  We should all play faster--but the handicap system is not the villain in doing so.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I’m afraid I have to agree with Eric.  Ran came off as holier than thou (and me). 

[Peter Pallotta]

Eric - hey, 1986: back then 6th place at the Smoky Mountain Prep Invitational really meant something, that was a hell of a tournament in its day -- before the Tour got involved in scheduling and siphoned off the top players for The Andy Griffith Mayberry Open (Opie Division).

Tom D - you'd know better than me (says Captain Obvious) but I'm surprised you think your courses wouldn't have gained traction if golf was always about the card & pencil. From the outside looking in, it seems to me that the 'card & pencil set' has flocked to your courses from day one -- even if they then ripped up their cards and/or used the erasers!
 

[John Mayhugh]

I think the problem is that Ran's comments came without the "equally valid reasons" statement, as if he was judging others. In fact, he made a comment about judging someone who asked for a score on the first hole or something, something about misjudging the character of the fellow.

It would be great if Andy provided a transcript of the podcast. I can read so much faster than I can listen, and being able to highlight what was actually said versus an interpretation of what posters say was meant would be helpful.

Here is an actual quote from Ran. This seems to have been missed or ignored by those that are taking offense:
People are free to turn the sport into anything that they want to. But for me, it's pure relaxation.
Shocking! How dare he say something like this! This guy is clearly not golf WOKE.

Ran made a little joke about making a misjudgement in inviting a guy who asked his score after the first hole. Do people really think that's an actual character assessment and he really wrote the person off?

He's also excoriated for skipping holes that have houses on them. In context, he was talking about playing 5-11 holes after work. I have not played Southern Pines, but from looking at the aerial, if you play 5 holes, you wouldn't be playing the holes with houses (seemingly). I seriously doubt he would play regular rounds and choose to avoid the holes with homes for aesthetic reasons. Seems more likely to be coincidence, doesn't it?

People are also making an elitist criticism based on Ran's statement that he doesn't play poor or bad golf courses. Context matters. Ran lives in Southern Pines and plays golf there. So his home course is a good course. When he travels, he likely picks the places he goes and courses he plays based on interest. What's wrong with that? Wouldn't the game be better if everyone voted with their money and didn't play crappy courses? Someone in Southern Pines just has a better ability to do that than someone in Louisville.

There were some things Ran said that I don't agree with, but so what? He is sharing his own viewpoint. Thinking differently than me doesn't hurt my feelings at all. I'm just super thankful that he didn't criticize Bluetooth speakers in carts. That would have gone way too far.

[John Kavanaugh]

   I’m afraid I have to agree with Eric.  Ran came off as holier than thou (and me).

Ran uses the term Pull Cart as opposed to Trolley. I take a ton of personal satisfaction in his love of Harbour Town. You know, me and him have the same refrigerator. It has a glass door like in a convenience mart. That says a lot about the guy, the very least being a holier than thou attitude. I once sold a house with that model of fridge and the first thing the lady who bought the house did was paint the window so no one could see what she was hiding in cold storage. I have since apologized to my old neighbors.


This interview has motivated me to create my own podcast that can exclusively be viewed on my myspace page. It will only be in written form so if you want to see the original content it can be subscribed to by fax. If you are interested please send me a fax number either by email or personal message.

[Kalen Braley]

If you go to the website, the podcast is right on the main page:


https://thefriedegg.com/

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