[Tommy Williamsen]

Ran noted on his article on Hidden Creek, that before he took the job Bill Coore walked the 750 acre property for three weeks. That is some reconnaissance plan. I have heard other such stories about him and even Pete Dye.
My question is, "What did he look for in those three weeks?" It sure seems like a long way from 18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon.

[Ira Fishman]

Tommy,


You have to buy Doak’s book on routing to find out  .


Ira

[Peter Pallotta]

I don't think he 'does' or 'looks for' anything in those three weeks.
He's like the Taoist monk who wandered into a village suffering through months of drought.
The people begged his help to bring them rain. He asked to be led to a small hut and to be left alone.
Three days later he came out, and with that the clouds opened up and it started to rain.
The villagers were estactic and so grateful: 'What did you do? What can we give you in thanks'? they asked.
And he said:
'I don't need anything, because I didn't *do* anything. The village was so out of the Tao that it took those three days of sitting in silence simply to bring myself back to It, back in the Tao -- and when I did, the life giving rains naturally returned'.

Not the right answer I'm sure, and certainly not the expert one -- but that's what I like to think is going on. There's a routing there, latent in the order of things  -- and if Bill C can be quiet & alone enough it will present itself, as naturally as the rain.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Was this process to determine a routing or was it to see if the site was worthy of their time?
It takes a long time to walk 50 yards in the woods... if you don't mind spider webs.
As features are found in the woods it helps to look at routing implications for each choice.
With a new set of choices one can walk the land again to see if alternative areas work as intended.
You would need to know all of your constraints to finish a routing.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Peter, I guess if we want to be a mystical about it, it could be like writing a song. Sometimes if I am still long enough That which wants to be sung will make itself known. Maybe it's like that for Bill Coore, that which wants to be routed becomes clear.

But what I really am asking is simple. It even could be self evident, but when you walk the land for that long, say 100 hours or more, what happens on the walk?

[Peter Pallotta]

Tommy - sorry for sidetracking this and I hear what you're asking, but just to say:
your years of musical training & study serve (and are essential for making manifest) That which wants to be sung; and in the same way, Bill's years of training & study are what allow the routing to make itself known if he's able to stay still long enough.
I could sit in a hut in silence for a month and still never write a song, and I could wander around a site for three months and never find a routing.
It's not what you or Bill 'do' that writes the song or routes the course, it's who you 'are' (and have worked hard and patiently to become) that's important/the key.
And to be honest, I don't think any of that is 'mystical' at all (in the way that word is often used); it's just the way things actually are.

[Kalen Braley]

Is Bill not a topo map kind of guy?


Seems a lot of figuring can be done in the office and then confirming with targetted hikes.  Or maybe he just really like the exercise...

[Steve Lang]

   topo men... look for animal or drainage paths...

[John Kavanaugh]

Was this process to determine a routing or was it to see if the site was worthy of their time?
It takes a long time to walk 50 yards in the woods... if you don't mind spider webs.
As features are found in the woods it helps to look at routing implications for each choice.
With a new set of choices one can walk the land again to see if alternative areas work as intended.
You would need to know all of your constraints to finish a routing.

I believe the architect. On the other hand. Three weeks is only 120 man hours. At $50/hr that is $6,000. I would call that a bargain to survey most every yard of a 100+ acre property.

[Steve Lang]

   Question is whether he pitched a tent there... likely more than 120 hours spent wandering

[Tom_Doak]

Is Bill not a topo map kind of guy?


Seems a lot of figuring can be done in the office and then confirming with targetted hikes.  Or maybe he just really like the exercise...

Bill does much more of his routing work on the ground than on a map.  Getting to watch how he did his work at Streamsong was fascinating.  His approach is very methodical, and very different to mine.  Luckily I will get to make that comparison in my routing book talking about Streamsong, but you will have to wait until the second Volume!

[Peter Flory]

It makes sense to me that ideally a lot of time would be spent on getting a routing right since there is really no changing it after the fact.  It's a blend of practical constraints and artistic inspiration.  There are nearly infinite possibilities.  It's a little like the traveling saleseman math problem where calculating the shortest route between even a small number of points gets really complex and incalculable. 

And the foliage must make it really difficult to visualize from the ground perspective as well. 

I would guess that most architects don't have the luxury to do this.  But if you do have that luxury, you may as well. 

Also, the sites that C&C are getting are pretty special (and expansive) and probably have a bigger spread between a great routing and an average one.

[Ira Fishman]

Is Bill not a topo map kind of guy?


Seems a lot of figuring can be done in the office and then confirming with targetted hikes.  Or maybe he just really like the exercise...

Bill does much more of his routing work on the ground than on a map.  Getting to watch how he did his work at Streamsong was fascinating.  His approach is very methodical, and very different to mine.  Luckily I will get to make that comparison in my routing book talking about Streamsong, but you will have to wait until the second Volume!

I remember an interview with Mr. Coore where he commented that his major in College in Classic Greek actually is relevant to his design work because it required so much patience and was so methodical to learn Ancient Greek. Tom, I believe you have said you were a whiz kid in Math turned Landscape Architecture major which perhaps contributes to your comfort level with Topo Maps.


Ira

[SL_Solow]

I was at a meeting with Bill and he was asked the question posed by Tommy.  He said he walked around until he "found a place that looked like golf" and then he worked from there.  I have always thought that to be a fascinating insight.  He did not appear to be joking.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I was at a meeting with Bill and he was asked the question posed by Tommy.  He said he walked around until he "found a place that looked like golf" and then he worked from there.  I have always thought that to be a fascinating insight.  He did not appear to be joking.

Actually that makes complete sense to me. It makes more sense than trying to figure out a preliminary routing. He wanted to know if the land could become a golf course he wanted to design. Really interesting.

[Jeff Schley]

I was at a meeting with Bill and he was asked the question posed by Tommy.  He said he walked around until he "found a place that looked like golf" and then he worked from there.  I have always thought that to be a fascinating insight.  He did not appear to be joking.

Actually that makes complete sense to me. It makes more sense than trying to figure out a preliminary routing. He wanted to know if the land could become a golf course he wanted to design. Really interesting.

Perhaps old school, but it proves there are a lot of ways to skin a cat. I'm curious how this contrasts with a Fazio for example who is known for moving a lot of dirt generally.  I wouldn't think he would feel the need to spend as much time as Bill because he was going to move dirt to make it happen.

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