How slow can they go?

[Kalen Braley]

I too think penalizing everyone would be a disaster.  All it takes is one slow person and now everyone is paying for it, including several groups behind.  This ain't Full Metal Jacket.


But I do think a cart with a shot clock following every group would certainly work for individual penalties.  With a rare few exceptions like being behind a dune, or in dense trees, it would easily be visible to everyone in the group, assuming the clock is decent size.  It would be simple, adapt or play elsewhere.


P.S.  I don't think fines would be all that effective either, unless its for a substantial amount of their winnings like 50% or more.  Look at how ineffective the relatively small fines levied on Wall Street have done to change bad behavior, needs to be more punitive like prison

[Dave McCollum]

I think it would work to have just one cart clock per hole.  There is already a volunteer on the tee to operated a clock/timer.  The cart clock guy waits at the LZ, follows the group up near the green, and returns to the LZ when the putting is done.  Might miss a few times, but it would sure as hell let the world know who are the slow pokes.  As I recall, the shot clock used on Euro tour event was large enough to be seen from the tee on the par threes.   

[Kalen Braley]

I think it would work to have just one cart clock per hole.  There is already a volunteer on the tee to operated a clock/timer.  The cart clock guy waits at the LZ, follows the group up near the green, and returns to the LZ when the putting is done.  Might miss a few times, but it would sure as hell let the world know who are the slow pokes.  As I recall, the shot clock used on Euro tour event was large enough to be seen from the tee on the par threes.

The disconnect I see with this is how do you handle longer par 4s or 5s when the group is 200+ yards back and/or with a partially blind view?  Wait for the cart to drive back to them and then start the clock?  Seems a bit counter to the reason of having a shot clock....

[Steve Kline]

Interesting Fried Egg podcast with Geoff Ogilvy with much time spent on this topic. Ogilvy has two interesting points:


1. Shaming
2. Rewards for fast play


In regards to shaming, he said on the Japanese tour, when players get put on the clock they literally start running between shots. He thinks it is a cultural thing because the Japanese really want to avoid shame from the other players for being slow. Therefore, he thinks that the optimal solution is that the players themselves solve it by the faster players putting pressure on the slower players. His feeling is slow play is ultimately a players issue. Although he did acknowledge and clearly resonated with the entertainment arguments. That’s when Ogilvy went to point 2.


In regards to rewards, Ogilvy pointed out that we have tried dining players for years, decades even. It doesn’t work. So let’s try the opposite. Let’s reward the fast players. He said with ShotLink you know (or could know?) the average time each player takes to hit a shot. Publish the times. At the end of the year give a bonus to the five fastest players in regard to time to play their shot and the five players who shortened their time the most. Perhaps you take the money from the slow players. Perhaps you make part of the prize a reward for fast play.


I think he is right that rewards work better than punishment. That seems to be true of almost anything.

[Niall C]

Should we really be rewarding players for doing the right thing. I mean, I know they are spoiled but rewards for playing at a decent pace ?!

It seems to me that the real problem is that the Tour really isn't interested or it would have sorted the problem long before now. As it is, longer rounds mean longer TV exposure which means the advertisers/sponsors are happier, so where is the real impetus to get something done ?

If they were interested there are various ways that they could sort it out. One way is through the sponsors. Anyone deemed to have played at an unacceptable pace could be prohibited from wearing or displaying any advertising logos either on themselves, equipment or caddy for the next 4 tournaments. Can't see the sponsors being happy with that and as we know money talks.

Niall

[archie_struthers]

 


At the end of the day you have to self police whether at a club or on tour. I’m sure some pros abhor the pace of play, so penalize the group that falls  out of position. A little WWF action on the tenth tee might bring a whole new fan base. I’m still taking taking Koepka.


Quick answer to Mike C regarding pace of play at PVGC. Hard to really motor there so 4-4.30 typical . If the chairman is in the house speeds usually pick up I’m thirty years removed so my inside info isn’t too strong these days , but I know Jim Davis moves fast !


Great PV pace of play story from way back!


My long deceased friend Louie Black Sr. caddied with me in my youth on occasion. He was probably 55 when I was twenty but tolerated a few of us nonetheless. They called him old man Louie because his son Lou Jr. also caddied.


One day I asked him about “John Arthur” Brown who proceeded Ernie Ransome as chairman. We were out with Ernie , a great guy, and as usual the loop was fast and easy. I asked if Mr Brown played fast like Mr Ransome?


He laughed and told me this story. One day he was working on Tuesday morning circa 1965. Pine Valley at the time was more a weekend place so no one was around that particular day. He was on a job with a group in for a few days from Chicago. They had a few rookies to the course in tow and were super excited to see the course. They had arrived on Monday pm and at 8 am were on the first tee with nary a soul around. Off they went.


Off they went playing some bad golf and struggling with the first four holes. As they went to the fifth tee  by the clubhouse Mr Brown came riding down in his three wheel cart from his home on number seven. He said hello to Louie , a fixture there for years and asked where the group was from.


Fast forward a good thirty minutes later and they were still on #6 when Mr Brown rose by back to his house. He appeared to look at his watch as he drove past, or so Louie thought 💭. Lou mentioned to the member that they might want to pick it up a little. Nobody anywhere in front or behind still. Louie didn't get much traction on his suggestion.


As they walked up the ninth green there sat Mr Brown with his loyal German Shepherd sitting on the cart with him. Uh oh, thought Louie!




He was right. Mr Brown warmly welcomed the member, asked about the Chicago weather and then calmly told the “boys” to take the short cut back to the clubhouse with the bags behind the 9th green. Off went the caddies back to the clubhouse.
Dumbfounded the players turned as Mr Brown got back in his cart. His parting reply was  "enjoy the soup 🍜 it’s quite good,try to do a little better tomorrow "!


Play was quite fast at PV for a while thereafter!

[Jim Nugent]

Interesting Fried Egg podcast with Geoff Ogilvy with much time spent on this topic.

Did Geoff say anything about a shot clock?  That still seems like a quick, effective, low-cost solution.  Penalties must be worked out, but some combination of warnings and extra strokes, along with a few timeouts per round, could do the trick. 

[Mike Sweeney]

Play was quite fast at PV for a while thereafter!

Archie,


Great story and it is that easy for the great clubs and on the PGA Tour.

[Steve Kline]

Interesting Fried Egg podcast with Geoff Ogilvy with much time spent on this topic.

Did Geoff say anything about a shot clock?  That still seems like a quick, effective, low-cost solution.  Penalties must be worked out, but some combination of warnings and extra strokes, along with a few timeouts per round, could do the trick.

He talked about it. Said it is an option but he hoped it wouldn’t have have to come to that.

[Jeff Evagues]

Matthew Fitzpatrick must have gone to the J B Holmes school of delay.  Every shot takes forever.

[Mark Pearce]

Matthew Fitzpatrick must have gone to the J B Holmes school of delay.  Every shot takes forever.

Maybe because he and Rory were waiting on basically every shot?

[Kalen Braley]

Matthew Fitzpatrick must have gone to the J B Holmes school of delay.  Every shot takes forever.

Maybe because he and Rory were waiting on basically every shot?

Agreed,


From what i could tell watching the last 2 hours today, they were waiting on almost every shot tee to green.

[Kalen Braley]

Good to see Brooks being outspoken on this, especially now that he's high profile!


https://golf.swingbyswing.com/tour/koepka-blames-slow-play-on-stars/