The locals rankings versus that of visitors

[Niall C]

Strong agreement with David and others (and please allow for innate Porthcawl member bias...), but RPGC has it, by a good distance. As I've mentioned before on GCA, that is also the dominant view within Wales, where the general ranking of local esteem seems to remain Porthcawl first, then Harlech and then Aberdovey, with Pennard in a decent scrap for fourth place. You may all think we're wrong. But as Tom Doak and others have often mentioned, repeated plays can give you a rather different perspective than occasional visits. Not necessarily better, but different. Anyway, all four remain, in their distinctive ways, wonderful places for a game of golf.

The above is a quote from Richard Fisher on the Pennard v Porthcawl thread and it was something that struck a cord with me. The locals often see things differently than visitors and wondered how the locals view differed to that of visitors in your area, and what the locals rankings would be compared to that of visitors ?

I'll give you mine after I've had a think about it.

Niall

[Michael Graham]

Niall,

Visitors: North Berwick > Gullane

Locals: Gullane > North Berwick

I'll be interested if the other NB members here on the board feel the same but from my experiences most locals think Gullane is the better course. Something about walls and crazy greens.

[John Kavanaugh]

Evansville, IN


Visitors: Quail Crossing > Cambridge


Locals: Cambridge > Quail Crossing


The DBBFC is ill attended in the tri-state area. Cambridge has really fought the good fight and appears to be more successful each time I drive by. Liddy has Doak down for the count.

[jeffwarne]

Interesting thread.


IMHO  locals tend to vlaue something they don't normally get..


Exclusivity(wanting something they can never have) extreme example but an ANGC local will probably NEVER get to play there, yet the visiting Ceo, or "well traveled" members of this board  that is invited there may well be comparing it to their experience at Pine Valley or Wentworth and may well get lost in the turtle soup or Wine list...


TV recognition-I'd say Shinnecock is the favorite amongst locals here due to their hosting U Opens, yet visitors often rave about National esp first time players. Visitors also praise nearby Southampton-many locals haven't even played it.


Conditioning-locals may not look forward to sidestepping cow dung and barren fairways at Pennard, and find it less than charming and an experience they can find at other "inferior" low budget local courses. A better conditioned course may well be the reason the local plays it as it may be different than what he gets to see every week.
For years Palmetto((no fairway irrigation) was a ghost town and I joined in the late 80's for $250 annual dues.
Goat Hill is my current Palmetto and the locals there think I'm nuts


Quirk- the local may well have written it off due to it not "being all out in front of you", yet the visitor may well have sought it out for just that. The visitor who hates quirk isn't coming in the first place if he's done his homework so he won't have athe chance to rate it poorly


......and probably most importantly, when a visitor seeks out a course to play, he's alrady biased towards it-by simply even being aware of it and and is predisposed to rate it highly because it obviously meets his prerequisites for selection.
Example-I was pretty sure I was going to like Durness having sought it out and driven 4 plus hours out of my way to get there. The Durness local, when given the chance to run down and play a lush green parkland in Inverness is probably going to value that experience quite highly -the same as he might on a trip to Palm Beach to play PGA National.


or not....


On balance, I think this is less about multiple plays and more about the fact that a preson who seeks your course out and has traveled to see it generally has a higher level of golf sophistication and architectural/historyeducation than the average member who joined/visits because it's inside the magic 20 minute drive from their home.

[Jay Mickle]

Evansville, IN
The DBBFC is ill attended in the tri-state area.

ANGC, RCD, TOC I get it. No need to expend the energy typing the course name when everyone knows that acronym, but DBBFC?
Durham Bad Boys Football Club?

[John Kavanaugh]

Doak Butt Boy Fan Club. You can't blame the locals or Doak. Quail Crossing has been one of those jinxed clubs from the start. Who could have seen mine subsidence coming? Certainly not the home builders. It does lead to some perplexed looks when in polite conversation you mention traveling great distances to play a Doak.

[Sean_A]

I really don't have a sense for locals VS visitors in my area.  For instance, I have never seen any documents to suggest that locals prefer Beau Desert much more than visitors (I assume this means visitors from quite a distance). 

In the bigger picture, for instance, I do get a sense that locals (those from England etc) prefer Burnham & Berrow much more than overseas visitors.  I can't really make any suggestions as to why this is the case. I suspect there are many courses like this. Perhaps Nairn is also one such example. 

I think often times the history of high profile events/rankings/writings can play a big part in forming reputations.  In fact, I still believe this happens today as each new high ink course is unveiled.  There has been at least one case of a course being ranked very high before it was even open.  There are numerous examples of high ink new courses falling down the rankings in favour of new high ink designs or rediscovered old designs.  Additionally, for instance, in GB&I there has been a distinct separation of perceived quality between "holiday" courses and "championship" courses.  I think many who dig into the well of holiday golf may come away thinking some of these are in the same class as championship courses.  To go further, I think these days some courses which weren't even mentioned as holiday courses in the past, just characterful local courses, are now starting to get their due as more people drift away from championship qualities as the the most important element in determining quality.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Interesting thread.


IMHO  locals tend to vlaue something they don't normally get..


Exclusivity(wanting something they can never have) extreme example but an ANGC local will probably NEVER get to play there, yet the visiting Ceo, or "well traveled" members of this board  that is invited there may well be comparing it to their experience at Pine Valley or Wentworth and may well get lost in the turtle soup or Wine list...


TV recognition-I'd say Shinnecock is the favorite amongst locals here due to their hosting U Opens, yet visitors often rave about National esp first time players. Visitors also praise nearby Southampton-many locals haven't even played it.


Conditioning-locals may not look forward to sidestepping cow dung and barren fairways at Pennard, and find it less than charming and an experience they can find at other "inferior" low budget local courses. A better conditioned course may well be the reason the local plays it as it may be different than what he gets to see every week.
For years Palmetto((no fairway irrigation) was a ghost town and I joined in the late 80's for $250 annual dues.
Goat Hill is my current Palmetto and the locals there think I'm nuts


Quirk- the local may well have written it off due to it not "being all out in front of you", yet the visitor may well have sought it out for just that. The visitor who hates quirk isn't coming in the first place if he's done his homework so he won't have athe chance to rate it poorly


......and probably most importantly, when a visitor seeks out a course to play, he's alrady biased towards it-by simply even being aware of it and and is predisposed to rate it highly because it obviously meets his prerequisites for selection.
Example-I was pretty sure I was going to like Durness having sought it out and driven 4 plus hours out of my way to get there. The Durness local, when given the chance to run down and play a lush green parkland in Inverness is probably going to value that experience quite highly -the same as he might on a trip to Palm Beach to play PGA National.


or not....


On balance, I think this is less about multiple plays and more about the fact that a preson who seeks your course out and has traveled to see it generally has a higher level of golf sophistication and architectural/historyeducation than the average member who joined/visits because it's inside the magic 20 minute drive from their home.

I think a lot of what Jeff says in this post is correct.


However, that’s why it’s important to try and gauge the local opinion amongst knowledgeable golfers who travel elsewhere to find great golf courses. You need to have like for like comparisons.


In Ireland, the local opinion of RCD is much more marmite than the world view. A lot of people love it for its aesthetics but a loss less people love it for the golf.


On the flip side, Portmarnock is loved a lot more locally. May be history but I genuinely do put this down to repeat plays versus hit ‘n’ run.


Amongst really knowledgable golfers, the other courses are much of a muchness. Although Baltray certainly ranks higher locally than the world at large sees it.

[Tim Gavrich]

Anthony Bourdain did a masterful job of highlighting this contrast in "No Reservations" and "Parts Unknown." He did go to some top-ranked no-one-goes-there-it's-too-crowded restaurants in cities where such restaurants were part of the story (Noma and Osteria Francescana come to mind), but he also seemed to focus increasingly on places where the clientele was almost entirely locals as time went on. It probed a central question about the point of travel re: food:


Do you want to eat alongside a bunch of fellow tourists, or do you want to eat alongside people who actually live and work in the place you're visiting?


Golf travel seems to skew pretty heavily toward the former. There are a lot of wonderful courses and resorts out there that cater almost entirely to transient visitors, and they have generally similar feels. But in a lot of destinations people might visit for golf, there are also courses that may not be as well-marketed (both by design and not), as well-conditioned or as expensive, etc., that nevertheless provide more insight into what the place you're visiting is really like.


I always try to mix places like this in with better-known places when I travel somewhere for Golf Advisor. A perfect example of this is Riviera CC in Ormond Beach, FL. It's an absolute gem, mostly played by locals. Brooksville CC is another good example here in FL. I recently was in Miami and visited two courses that are very much local-flavor places. They blew me away, not because the architecture was exquisite (though each has moments), but because the community of golfers each course has attracted and fostered is one that gave me the feeling that I was in a place where the game was integrated into the fabric of the area. That's a rewarding feeling, and one that travel should seek to incorporate.

[Kalen Braley]

I think part of this phenomena may be due to the visitor not having a good understanding of the interesting low profile stuff in the area.


So when they travel to destinations, many of which may be a one and only 2-3 day visit, seems easier to go after the well known name stuff, as you don't have the luxury to browse and find the hidden gems thru trial and error.


Imagine how many golf tourists have visited the Monterey area and never bothered to play the terrific back 9 at PG...

[Sean_A]

I think part of this phenomena may be due to the visitor not having a good understanding of the interesting low profile stuff in the area.

So when they travel to destinations, many of which may be a one and only 2-3 day visit, seems easier to go after the well known name stuff, as you don't have the luxury to browse and find the hidden gems thru trial and error.

This is why it is important to "follow" guys whose judgement/opinions you trust.  That sort of insider experience is invaluable to the travelling golfer.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

I think part of this phenomena may be due to the visitor not having a good understanding of the interesting low profile stuff in the area.

So when they travel to destinations, many of which may be a one and only 2-3 day visit, seems easier to go after the well known name stuff, as you don't have the luxury to browse and find the hidden gems thru trial and error.

This is why it is important to "follow" guys whose judgement/opinions you trust.  That sort of insider experience is invaluable to the travelling golfer.


Ciao

True Sean,

In a perfect world GCA recommended courses would be splashed all over the internet, but when places like Torrey Pines and Mrtyle Beach are such popular destinations, looks like most are getting some poor advice. 

Even getting a good recommendation on places to eat or hotels to stay can be sketchy.  Which site do you trust if you don't know anyone who's been in the area or don't trust the judgement of the friend giving you the advice?

[Thomas Dai]

Here’s one that’s ‘interesting’. Whilst at Brora and Tain a while back I gently enquired with some locals what they thought was the best course in the area and some replied Skibo/Carnegie!
Atb

[Sean_A]

I think part of this phenomena may be due to the visitor not having a good understanding of the interesting low profile stuff in the area.

So when they travel to destinations, many of which may be a one and only 2-3 day visit, seems easier to go after the well known name stuff, as you don't have the luxury to browse and find the hidden gems thru trial and error.

This is why it is important to "follow" guys whose judgement/opinions you trust.  That sort of insider experience is invaluable to the travelling golfer.

Ciao

True Sean,

In a perfect world GCA recommended courses would be splashed all over the internet, but when places like Torrey Pines and Mrtyle Beach are such popular destinations, looks like most are getting some poor advice. 

Even getting a good recommendation on places to eat or hotels to stay can be sketchy.  Which site do you trust if you don't know anyone who's been in the area or don't trust the judgement of the friend giving you the advice?

Hotels and restaurants are even harder to discern because taste vary far more than for golf.  Plus, I think the cost plays a bigger role for most.  Its pretty easy to double the cost of a golf holiday by splashing on hotels, food and drink. 

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Thomas,

And it gets even more complicated.  As an example, when i moved to Salt Lake City 6 years ago, I didn't know anyone in the area, as my family all lives 30-45 minutes south of here.  I started looking around online for well rated dining places, zeroing in on local reviews of the best places to grab a bite.  Turns out most locals here value two things over everything else...1) How much food do they serve, 2) And how inexpensive is it.  As opposed to say other factors like Quality of Food, dining ambiance, service, dish variety, etc.

So it took quite a bit of time, trial and error, and local knowledge to sift thru these highly rated places to find the ones that actually served well thought out and nicely executed food items.

[John Kavanaugh]

There is nothing more simple than evaluating all the information at hand and picking a restaurant. If you want to go deep just ask the right people. I remember the first time I wanted to eat off site at Prairie Dunes. I asked the bartender where can I get a good steak and get in a fight? He sent me to the Polo Lounge. They cook steaks on a grill just outside the bar. I love the place.


I will never understand how someone can't know exactly what they want without a taste test.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I don’t think this question is about GCA recommended courses versus lesser lights.


This thread is about where the world (and the conglomerate GCA) has generally got it wrong in the view of the locals who play the courses much more.

[Niall C]

I don’t think this question is about GCA recommended courses versus lesser lights.


This thread is about where the world (and the conglomerate GCA) has generally got it wrong in the view of the locals who play the courses much more.

Actually it is intended to be about what the locals think.

Kalen

In your analogy, does well thought out and nicely executed food equate to the locals choice in golf course or does it equate to the visitors ? Or how about dining ambience ? Does that equate to having nice locker rooms ? And then there’s service, does that equate to having someone to carry your clubs ? Interested to know.

Niall

[Niall C]

Niall,

Visitors: North Berwick > Gullane

Locals: Gullane > North Berwick

I'll be interested if the other NB members here on the board feel the same but from my experiences most locals think Gullane is the better course. Something about walls and crazy greens.

Michael,

Even as a (frequent) visitor I would tend to agree with the assessment if not the reasoning for Gullane v. NB. In saying that, I’m referring to the Gullane courses in general and not just no.1. I should also say I’ve grown to enjoy and appreciate NB a lot more over the years from when I first played it.

I suppose the west coast equivalent is between Glasgow Gailes and Western. I’d played both a couple of times when I joined Gailes mainly because a lot of my friends were members. In an early medal I casually mentioned to my playing partner that I thought Western a better course. He looked at me like I was mad. It only took me a few more plays of each to appreciate why. Gailes is significantly better and more interesting.

The only advantage Western has is that it’s easier to get on, which in itself tells you something.

Niall

[Niall C]

Sean

Re Beau Desert, I played with a couple of different groups of members when I played there recently and I did ask the question as to the best courses locally and where BD stood in that ranking. To be honest I can’t recall exactly what they said but conditioning came into the equation somewhere. They mentioned a couple of other courses (can’t recall what they were called) but BD was generally up there.

However when I suggested that BD would be near the top of inland courses in Scotland if it were located north of the border they looked at me as though I’d lost my marbles. Maybe I do need to play it more to get a better feel for it.

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

I don’t think this question is about GCA recommended courses versus lesser lights.


This thread is about where the world (and the conglomerate GCA) has generally got it wrong in the view of the locals who play the courses much more.

I have been saying this for 13-14 years. The minor opinion is very often the raters themselves.

[Kalen Braley]

Niall,

I actually wasn't trying to make an analogy on the detailed items...but if I was.

Cheap and inexpensive with tons of quantity would be equal to a low priced, uninteresting and boring course that you could play again and again at a bargain rate.

The positive aspects for restaurants would translate to good architecture with a varied routing, well-placed bunkering, interesting greens, a nice setting, etc....even if you had to pay more for the experience.


P.S.  My only point is, sometimes the locals can't be trusted to have good preferences even if they often do!

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom D has long-praised the qualities of the 'average English course' -- as a class, the gold standard for walkable, challenging and sustainable fields of play that for decades have provided countless hours of enjoyment to golfers of all skills-sets over millions of rounds of golf. But I'd imagine that only 1 out of 100/1000 visitors to the isles has planned his trip around (and is most keen to play) the 'average' English course. It's a matter of semantics and subtlety both.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I don’t think this question is about GCA recommended courses versus lesser lights.


This thread is about where the world (and the conglomerate GCA) has generally got it wrong in the view of the locals who play the courses much more.

Actually it is intended to be about what the locals think.

That’s what I meant. There’s no point talking about courses where the locals are in agreement with everybody else.


Or for that matter about courses where the locals are just calling them “hidden gems” as opposed to clearly better than the world-renown alternative.

[John Kavanaugh]

All gas station chicken tenders are not alike. Nothing better than calling down the road to your sister station and telling them to take the bathroom out of service. You don't have to be a local to love watching a guy with the trots running out back.


Locals build up biological and cultural immunities that make most of these discussions moot.