[Jim Sherma]

For me a course is "hard" and "difficult" if there are not some slopes to play into or off of when hitting into the greens. Hershey East is a 1970 George Fazio course and 14 of the 18 holes are elevated from the surrounding area and the high point in each of these green complexes are in the middle of the green somewhere. Every edge of those 14 greens either releases down off of the green pad or else is edged by a deep bunker. When the green are firm the effective landing areas for a decent outcome are very small. The course itself is very open and you will almost never lose a golf ball but it is a very demanding course for all handicaps with mid and higher handicaps who can't spin the ball having a real tough time. There is nothing about these approach shots that are in your head or not, either you hit a small area mostly uphill and usually not seeing the green surface (9 of the 14 have either all or most of the green surface playing blind although you can see all of the flags) with some spin or you don't with the ball usually not staying on the putting surface or at least leaving you a putt up and over the high point on the green.


Another example of what I am describing is the difficulty I had with 17 at Ballyneal. I found that every other green on the course gave me some slope to help me get the ball to stay near where I wanted it if I played the right shot. 17 seemed to accept only a near perfect shot and repelled anything less. This made it by far the most difficult hole on the course in my rounds there.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm still having a "hard" time understanding how "difficult" features that lead to higher scores for the majority of players are not actually considered such.


Every course has a par rating, the further you shoot above that number the harder it is no? Why are some being so difficult and hard headed about this? 

[John Kavanaugh]

The only thing that matters to me is how hard the course is for my oppononent. This makes what appears to be easiest course for some the most difficult type of course for me.


If you can truly find joy in the failure of your playing partners you are most assured a great day.

[Ian Mackenzie]

For me, a course is hard when I encounter:


1. "Asynchronous" angles and sight lines (my own term, sorry..;-)
2. Visual presentations that create uncertainty in my mind.


A course that comes to mind (for me) is one that has been on TV and has hosted the BMW Championship a few times as part of the PGA fall playoffs - Conway Farms outside of Chicago.


Personally, I dislike this course (but like the club).
Lots of awkward and uncomfortable angles and features.


- Dog-leg lefts with fairway that slopes left to tight...yikes. (Like #4 Olympic Club Lake)
- Greens that slope hard left to right from a FW that also slopes left to right.

[Steve Lang]

George,


What constitutes "hard" or "difficult" on a golf course to you?


When there's no mental resting on the course. My personal candidate course is Oak Tree, circa 1997.   You get done, and looking back over a beer, you say "man, that was mentally exhausting!  Someone says EMERGENCY 9, and you head back out...

[Gib_Papazian]

The original question might be a bit too open-ended because I could take virtually any local muni and make it hard enough to put everyone into a mental hospital. So, what - intrinsically - makes a golf course difficult? 


I’m going with Peter P.’s angle here. Most people hit their driver higher than I can hit a sand wedge, which gives me a rather nice leg up a places like Bandon, but ungodly long and sticky-grassed Aronomink? Not so much.


Assuming light rough and reasonable length, the hardest courses for me are designs that deliberately (cliché warning) asks a question it knows I cannot answer, 18 fucking times in a row . . . . . instead of 18 different questions.


High ball hitters can play links golf just fine - otherwise Nicklaus does not win three Claret Jugs - but the great equalizer is the strategic options presented by green complexes that encourage creativity.


Yet this same man has made a spectacular living  - post-Tour career - building courses full of holes designed to deliberately (and arrogantly) frustrate, vex and shoulder away approaches hit with piercing flight.


We have all played courses full of Ted Robinson “Aquatic Presentations,” but if you can keep the ball between the gutters, Splash Mountain isn’t really scary or hard. 


Here is a huge difference: A golf course designed to piss me off (South Course, Grand Cypress) is one that after a good tee shot from the appropriate tees, I am faced with a mid-iron to a sliver of green cement, sloping away towards the drink. And if you don’t have that trick in your bag, we are going to keep asking it all the way to the clubhouse.


A golf course designed to challenge me mentally, a different way on every hole, is worth throwing down the gauntlet. The game is not rigged at Carnoustie or Oakmont or WF West. Hit the shot or the next one, though not impossible, will be proportionally more difficult in accordance with the gravity of the miss.


A better question might be: “When is ‘hard' good, and not just hard?"


   


       

[Steve Lang]

   A better question might be: “When is ‘hard' good, and not just hard?"

Gib, That's when  you'll go back out for an Emergency 9... Merry Prankster Golf, on the bus man or you're left behind...

Everyone can matriculate or golf their ball down the fairway, perhaps curve it or loft it, but no one has a right to par, just the chance to get it in the hole or now to hit the pin... you earn it and if you think you're being cheated, why do you keep playing?

[Brad Tufts]

Scratch player here, maybe 250 carry off the tee, 7-iron 165ish, medium trajectory.


Hard to me:


1.  Many holes with long forced carries on the approach.  I do not mind this every now and then for variety, but my confidence goes down when I'm more than 180 yards from the hole with no bailout.


2.  Greens that are fast for fast's sake.  My home course has very good fast, smooth greens, but they can be borderline unplayable on tournament days.  I've played a handful of green sets that are faster (I'm talking more than 11), and its no fun at all when even a 10-footer can turn into a calamity, or you can't go for a putt of any length all day.


3.  Pinehurst-like fairway chipping areas where you must chip/uphill, sometimes a decent distance.  I have a good short game, but the 50-50 decision of whether to pitch or bump drives me nuts.  Ultimately I could make both work, but I would still love the choice to be simple each time.


Interesting comments Tom on the UK/USA perception of difficulty.  During my first trip to Scotland in 1999, the dominant difficult feature of links golf to me was fescue lining most holes.  I came away thinking that if I grew up in Scotland, I'd be the straightest driver of the ball ever, because you have to do so to survive on those courses!  I don't buy the "width creates too many choices" difficulty argument...I've always thought American parkland courses need to be wider, and the fairway widths seem arbitrary, mowed well in from the treelines to meet a "goal width."  I loved the fairway presentation at Old Elm and Shoreacres (August 2018), where you have enough width for even amateurs to pick a side, and only something 20-30y offline found the rough.

[JHoulihan]

Many things come to mind depending on the day, but here are two I remember most often.
1. Average to narrow fairway width with long rough or penalty area nearby. Playing Camelback in Phoenix is the most recent example. Shots just 3-10 yards off line may end up in rough so long you have to step on it to find it or the opposite where so little buffer is present that any offline shot plays into a penalty area. No one deserves a perfect lie when hitting tee ball offline but zero chance to hit the green in two (including losing a sleeve of golf balls) drives me nuts.
2. Green surrounds cut so long or short there is only 1 option. Being able to grab putter hybrid wedge or 9 iron should be up to the player. If you hack 60 degree from 4 inch greenside over and over cannot be fun for anyone but the short game wizards. Playing at Sand Valley last summer gave me a whole new appreciation for greenside options based on the green size and hole locations presented.


Justin

[Gib_Papazian]

Steve, My Merry Prankster "Emergency Nine" is four Tecates, three shots of hornitos and two bong hits. And my ball does not matriculate, it prevaricates - especially on a golf course where Brad Klein's bloop-cut plays on all 18 holes, while Uncle Gibby's ball ends up against the back lip of every greenside bunker.


Here is the thing - a chip shot from age 60 - I don't have enough good years left to try and reason with a crazy bitch, you dig? I already know she has broken glass in her snatch - and I don't have to take her for a test drive to know the result will be a bloody stump.


As for Brad (Tufts), if you don't like Old #2, I'll take your tee time. If you want to play a game with no subjectivity, I suggest archery.   

[Steve Lang]

  Gib,


I understand by your classic Courier M typewriter trail of mischief that you can process the art of golf and live to report on it or better yet, relate to it.   But only checking out at 60?  I can see 67 without my glasses, but shooting my age is still fuzzy on the wall chart. 


Play on, and let me know if you're ever in the Houston area, except for July or August; playing in the real heat along the 30th parallel, now that's hard on mind and body...

[Kyle Harris]

The only good golf stories involve making 2 or 8.


At some point it is time to start looking at difficulty on a golf course in terms of how one makes 3 on every hole and not how one can make 7 on every hole.

[Bob Montle]

George,
This is a great topic.  I think I see where you're coming from.
One can struggle and score poorly while still greatly enjoying the round.

As a high handicap 70 yr old, my idea of hard or difficult is different than what it was twenty years ago!

But for now -
I hate long forced carries.  Anything over 160 yds is just too difficult for me. 
I also detest greens which are completely blocked in front by sand or water.  When I am 150 to 160 yds out, if I am required to fly it onto the green it is just impossible.

To simplify, I believe courses are too hard if you have to use the same clubs over and over while others gather dust in your bag.  For example, lots of long par fours where I have to hit driver - fairway wood to reach the greens.  Over and over.  Or where the green is guarded in front so I must hit driver - wedge (lay up) - wedge.   These holes just wear me down and ruin my joy of playing.

The other course which is "too hard" is the parkland course carved out of a forest.  The ones where they brag you never see a hole other than the one you are playing. With 30 yd wide fairways and 50 yard corridors between the pines on both sides of the fairway.  NO FUN AT ALL!

[AChao]

Length -- over 7,300 yards at sea level is really long,  Rough -- real rough I can only hit 8 iron or less out of.  Narrow fairways.  Greens with really small sections.  Super fast greens with a lot of slope on hole locations.  Bumpy / poa makes it tougher.  I played Oakland Hills South last year and found it really difficult.   

[Chad Anderson (Tennessee)]

I think different courses are hard or difficult for different reasons.


Pinehurst #2 - was difficult due to greens/green surrounds.  It was generous off the tee.
Harbour Town - difficult due to narrow tree-lined fairways and small greens.
Victoria National - difficult design - hard golf course
The Honors - difficult due to length and where Dye punishes you for a bad shot
Irish Golf - hard due to wind and not being able to hit a low runner


Some courses are difficult due to OB that is in play.  You can't recover from hitting a tee ball OB 3 times in a round on shots that weren't "that bad".


Lots of ways that golf is hard!

[George Pazin]

George,
This is a great topic.  I think I see where you're coming from.
One can struggle and score poorly while still greatly enjoying the round.

Thanks, Bob, it's nice to see someone finally got my point.

[Jeff Schley]

Length -- over 7,300 yards at sea level is really long,  Rough -- real rough I can only hit 8 iron or less out of.  Narrow fairways.  Greens with really small sections.  Super fast greens with a lot of slope on hole locations.  Bumpy / poa makes it tougher.  I played Oakland Hills South last year and found it really difficult.   

What about tight lies around the greens?  Always struggle with those, especially when I have to chip over a bunker.....off a tight lie around the green.

[James Brown]

Length.  Length.  Length.  I’ve never seen a course  that I thought was too hard if I played from the right tees.   


A median tee shot for me in the summer is about 250 total. Torrey Pines South was a great challenge from 7000, but would be impossible and unenjoyable for me from 7500 yards.  But Torrey is pretty tame around the greens and pretty much a ball strikers course.  For the courses I enjoy most, 6600 yards is perfect unless there is a lot of wind. 


The Bandon courses are the best example of tough but fun I’ve seen as a group. Pacific Dunes from the back tees is too hard for me if the wind is blowing beyond 15 mph.  But all are playable and challenging from the one up tees in just about every condition. 

[Mike Bodo]

What about tight lies around the greens?  Always struggle with those, especially when I have to chip over a bunker.....off a tight lie around the green.

I am in 100% agreement with shots around the green that involve hitting over/clearing a bunker and landing it on the front edge just to keep it on the putting surface. I'm always afraid of not hitting the ball hard or high enough and leaving it in the bunker. Good call, as that is probably my least favorite scenario on a golf course. If your ball is on a down lie, forget it!

[Jeff Schley]

What about tight lies around the greens?  Always struggle with those, especially when I have to chip over a bunker.....off a tight lie around the green.

I am in 100% agreement with shots around the green that involve hitting over/clearing a bunker and landing it on the front edge just to keep it on the putting surface. I'm always afraid of not hitting the ball hard or high enough and leaving it in the bunker. Good call, as that is probably my least favorite scenario on a golf course. If your ball is on a down lie, forget it!

OMG downhill lie you are adding to the nightmare!!!!!!  Might as well skull it over the green quickly and get on with it for me.  As much as I try to be positive in that scenario, I'm thinking the whole time, "xkljipoaudfisof!!!!!"

[Mike Bodo]

OMG downhill lie you are adding to the nightmare!!!!!!  Might as well skull it over the green quickly and get on with it for me.  As much as I try to be positive in that scenario, I'm thinking the whole time, "xkljipoaudfisof!!!!!"

  I've intentionally skulled a few shots like this in my lifetime hoping the ball would go through the bunker and come to rest on the green, as the alternative were I to take a normal shot with a lob wedge (face wide open) and skull it would be a farm more disastrous result.

[Kalen Braley]

Thought I'd post this here instead of starting something new.

But after watching The Players the last couple of days, I wonder how the pros would answer this question specifically in context of TPC Sawgrass?

My guess would be two things: 1)  Water everywhere 2)  Green-side Moguls with all kinds of funky lies/stances.

The longer holes, with maybe the exception of 9 don't even seem to phase these guys anymore.  Even on the 450+ par 4s, most are hitting 8 iron or less for the approach.

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