Why don't we have green surrounds that look like this anymore?

[Jon Wiggett]

Were the sandy waste areas on 6 and 7 originally a natural feature at PB or were they manufactured or accentuated? I rather like the original hole designs to the current, as the waste areas look like they belong there.

I can't imagine the top of the bluff there is naturally sandy.  It would have gotten blown down to sandstone long ago.

Tom,


it is just as unlikely there were manicured, sharp edged bunkers or an area of grass at green height. A golf course is always manmade and so not natural. It is whether it fits into the surroundings that is important.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Wind, and traffic.


Few seem to appreciate that many of these old photos are a snapshot in time. I’d bet a lot of $ that the hole didn’t look like the picture for even one full year. 

That probably is true. If they just let the weather do its worst to the sand it would look differently every year.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Like Jeff says  what keeps the sand down? I don't think the surround look right...strikes me as not well integrated and a bit fake looking


Ciao

Sean, do you seriously think that the second picture looks less fake?

[Sean_A]

Like Jeff says  what keeps the sand down? I don't think the surround look right...strikes me as not well integrated and a bit fake looking


Ciao

Sean, do you seriously think that the second picture looks less fake?

Tommy

I didn't say that. I just offered that the shaping in that old photo isn't special...it reveals the man-made efforts when I suspect the goal was a completely natural look. Plus I don't get how the work functions from a practical PoV.

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

But isn't it true: the main reason we didn't have such green surrounds for many decades is simply because we didn't want them?
Isn't it another example of the dramatic & decisive break between pre-and-post WWII architecture?
The art and style (and no doubt to some, the decadence) of the '20s was first put on hold by the Depression and the war and then literally 'replaced' by the staid and sensible ethos of the 1950s.
Even if the wind hadn't changed those bunkers (almost immediately) the winds of change certainly did (over time).
I'm kind of surprised they've made a comeback!

[Pete Lavallee]

Did Egan ever use these natural style bunkers at another golf course either before or after the PB Project?

[Sven Nilsen]

Did Egan ever use these natural style bunkers at another golf course either before or after the PB Project?

Pete:


You might be focusing on the wrong guy as the influence for this look.  Robert Hunter may have had just as much of a hand in the new look at Pebble, reminiscent of what was going on just down the road.


Sven

[Mark Pearce]

How is the wind at Tara Iti compared to Pebble?

Tara Iti is a pretty windy place.  We had more trouble establishing grass there than on any of our other seaside courses, because there was so much exposed sand ready to get blown on top of the fairways every time the wind came up.


Most of my rounds at Pebble were in the summer, and I've never encountered it when it was really windy.  On average, at least, I doubt it is windier than Tara Iti.

Thanks, Tom, pretty much what I thought was likely the case.  Do you expect the areas at Tara Iti that look a little like the earlier Pebble picture to grass over with time, or will they remain as waste areas?

[Mike Bodo]

Did Egan ever use these natural style bunkers at another golf course either before or after the PB Project?

Pete:


You might be focusing on the wrong guy as the influence for this look.  Robert Hunter may have had just as much of a hand in the new look at Pebble, reminiscent of what was going on just down the road.


Sven

This must have been the look and style of that period (at least for seaside courses), as looking back at some old photos I found of Cypress Point, it shares many of the same landscape characteristics of Pebble Beach.






I love this look, as the land forms appear natural even if they're not. I'd sooner play both Pebble and CP in their original state then how they look and play today. Same with Augusta National. I think the vast majority of the golfing public, if given the option of playing the original and current layouts of these legendary courses, would opt for the original by a wide margin. It just goes to show that change isn't always for the best.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I believe Tara Iti and Friars Head are both private and aren't trying to sell themselves to the public.

Jerry - dont know about Friar's Head, but I believe that you can play Tara Iti unsponsored and unaccompanied...but just once and it is silly spendy. As in close to $5K for a 4-some.


Like CPC, you can be sponsored as an unaccompanied guest for less.

[JC Jones]

Wind, and traffic.


Few seem to appreciate that many of these old photos are a snapshot in time. I’d bet a lot of $ that the hole didn’t look like the picture for even one full year.  Likewise, Billy Bell’s frilly edges would need to be edged constantly to keep that look, because grass grows horizontally . . . Trent Jones tried the same effect, with the same problem.


You could restore the 7th at Pebble to the photo, but it wouldn’t last long.  You could maybe reproduce it somewhere else, away from the ocean, where it would last a little longer.

Can't like this enough.  All the GCA self proclaimed "preservationists" have no problem spending other people's money. 

[Kalen Braley]

JC,

I would tend to agree with this, if it wasn't the case at Bandon Resort, which they seem to have figured out how to keep a going concern despite the even stronger winds and nearly as much traffic.

If we were talking PG down the road, I would agree without further ado...,but they're getting $500 per clip and keeping the tee sheet full, and they couldn't figure out how to make this work?  Having a hard time buying that one...

[Matthew Petersen]

Did Egan ever use these natural style bunkers at another golf course either before or after the PB Project?

Pete:


You might be focusing on the wrong guy as the influence for this look.  Robert Hunter may have had just as much of a hand in the new look at Pebble, reminiscent of what was going on just down the road.


Sven

This must have been the look and style of that period (at least for seaside courses), as looking back at some old photos I found of Cypress Point, it shares many of the same landscape characteristics of Pebble Beach.






I love this look, as the land forms appear natural even if they're not. I'd sooner play both Pebble and CP in their original state then how they look and play today. Same with Augusta National. I think the vast majority of the golfing public, if given the option of playing the original and current layouts of these legendary courses, would opt for the original by a wide margin. It just goes to show that change isn't always for the best.

Mike,


The difference is that the dunes at Cypress (and all the way up the road at Spyglass, MPCC, and all the way to Pacific Grove) are natural. They were there before golf.


The "dunes" seen in old photos around the 4th, 6th, and 7th greens at Pebble are not natural, because that area isn't naturally sandy. Per the recent photo essay the PBC put up, Egan built those faux dunes, which is probably why they didn't last very long.

[Tim Gavrich]

In terms of pure green size, which 7th hole at Pebble Beach is in better scale with the shot required?


If the current 7th has suffered, it seems to be from the buildup of sand on the edges of the green from decades of bunker shots.


If lush grass rough + prim bunkers is not a fitting makeup for the green's surrounds, and the ring of sand is manufactured and/or not sustainable long-term, what's the happy medium? What vegetation would take over on that cliff if the course closed tomorrow? Why not advocate for a future 7th green surrounded by a minimally-managed version of...whatever that would be?


I played golf for a few weeks ago in the Miami area and noticed considerable encroachment by St. Augustine grass in many roughs. I would assume plenty of golfers would prefer it be stripped out and replaced with Bermuda, but I thought it contributed to the sense of place. Does the old sand ring contribute to the sense of place at Pebble Beach? It seems the jury is out on that.

[Mike Bodo]

Mike,

The difference is that the dunes at Cypress (and all the way up the road at Spyglass, MPCC, and all the way to Pacific Grove) are natural. They were there before golf.

The "dunes" seen in old photos around the 4th, 6th, and 7th greens at Pebble are not natural, because that area isn't naturally sandy. Per the recent photo essay the PBC put up, Egan built those faux dunes, which is probably why they didn't last very long.

Makes total sense. However, it makes you wonder if Egan did this at the behest of Mackenzie (and perhaps Hunter) as a byproduct of their work at MPCC and wanting to incorporate the sandy dunes features found there into PB even though they weren't natural? I also wonder how long after the 1929 renovation the course took on its now grass rough and manicured bunker style appearance, as there is no mention of further work having been done on the course on PBC's website until Nicklaus in 1998?

[Sean_A]

Like Jeff says  what keeps the sand down? I don't think the surround look right...strikes me as not well integrated and a bit fake looking

Ciao

The marine layer?

Jim

I am not sure what you mean by "marine layer".  To my eye the work looks fake and not at all natural...it certainly fails the so-called Dr Mac test as the rear work doesn't blend at all with the blow-out sandy waste areas. The work makes me think the sandy area is mainly or wholly replicated.

Ciao   

[Sven Nilsen]

I also wonder how long after the 1929 renovation the course took on its now grass rough and manicured bunker style appearance, as there is no mention of further work having been done on the course on PBC's website until Nicklaus in 1998?

Some time before this photos was taken.  I like the old look better.

[Sven Nilsen]

This one was dated 1950.

[Mike Bodo]

I also wonder how long after the 1929 renovation the course took on its now grass rough and manicured bunker style appearance, as there is no mention of further work having been done on the course on PBC's website until Nicklaus in 1998?

Some time before this photos was taken.  I like the old look better.

I'm with you Sven. This is a hole that is in a bad transitory state. I prefer the current rendition and the 1929 version of the hole to this. YIKES!! 

[Lou_Duran]

Likely depends on the site and climate, but water and fertilizer which migrate with the aid of the wind surely have a big impact.  I played Sand Hills not long after it opened.  On a second trip many years later, the course was not nearly as rustic/scruffy and there seemed to be a lot more grass throughout.  Ditto for CPC which had a greater green/white contrast than during my initial visit.  Dallas National has a few holes with exposed rock (two feature canyons from tee to green, created by ripping and removing soil and rock) which had a wonderful natural, rustic look in the few years after it opened, but are now mostly covered with Bermuda and other vegetation.  I suspect that keeping artificially created landscapes looking "natural" adjacent to maintained areas is nearly impossible without $$$$$.