How slow can they go?

[Jon McSweeny]

As a marginal fan of tournament golf, I'd be pretty disappointed if a tournament were decided by a penalty stroke given for slow play. Not that it would be inherently unreasonable- I could see where it would be entirely appropriate- but just that it would leave a general bad taste to watch a tournament and have it decided that way.

So how about this, instead of stroke penalties, the Tour goes right after what counts, the wallet.

Assume a baseline of 4:30 for each round- 270 minutes. If you finish slower than that, what ever percentage of time you were late, gets deducted from your winnings. So if you finish in 4:57, you're 27 minutes late and you just donated 10% of your winnings to the Make-A-Wish foundation (or something similar.) This way the result of the event isn't compromised, but the point is clearly made.

You can adjust the 4:30 depending on course and conditions, and you might even be able to apportion fault within the slow group if necessary, though I'm not quite sure how that would work practically.  Of course, you might need a lot of security to keep a few guys from getting killed when this rolls out, but I think I would prefer this option to penalties. Any chance the players would go for it?

[James Brown]

The Tour’s policy board (with players on it) would have to approve a rules change, which means there would have to be MASSIVE outcry from the sponsors to force the issue. Like it or not, we are a long way from that point. 

[John Kirk]

It's too bad about the slow play.  I very much enjoyed the challenge that Riviera presented the players.  It's great how the back nine has three very long holes downwind and five consecutive upwind holes that the player must fight on his journey across the course.  I loved watching Thomas and Holmes drill low bullets into the wind.  Adam Scott doesn't appear to be as well versed in the low trajectory game.  He fared worse than the other two leaders in the brutal conditions.
You may have noticed that Jordan Spieth mentioned after the round that Riviera's conditions were not good for someone trying to find his "A" game, or something to that effect.  I think he's right.  In order to play your best in a 25 mph wind, you pretty much have to hit low bullets to compete, an adjustment that could put you "out of tune" for a few days while you find your upright, high ball game again.
Anyway, yes I hate 5:45 final rounds.  Twosomes ow routinely average 4:30 on the final day of major tournaments.  But I relished the challenge I saw on Sunday, watching the guys grinding hard to hit those   low balls into the wind.  It was fucking hard out there.
 

[Philippe Binette]

4h30 max for the round
4h35, the entire group 1 stroke penalty
4h40, the entire group 2 stroke penalty
4h45, the entire group: DQ... done deal




slow play is gaining advantage...


imagine a sunday in bening conditions:
[size=78%]Player A tied for the lead, takes forever to play 5h15, finishes just before darkness in the final round.[/size]
Player B tied for the lead, two groups behind can't get to 18th tee before play is called...


Player B has to comeback on monday morning.. temperature goes down 15 degrees, little rain and 25 mph wind in your face on the 470 yards par 4 finishing hole...


player A definitely cheated..

[John Kavanaugh]

Erik,


Why then do golfers join private clubs?

Erik,


Please tell me why a woke millennial is going to join a private club for any reason other than to avoid slow play.

[Mike Sweeney]

Erik,


Please tell me why a woke millennial is going to join a private club for any reason other than to avoid slow play.

1) Economics 101. It is probably a small number (all golfers) that have the time to make a private club membership "pay off", but if you play 50 rounds a year on a private course, it is probably cheaper than public by the day options. I realize that you are a Fancy Golf Club kind of guy and that number of rounds will be higher for Jaka.


2) Sunk Cost - Once you sink the cost into the membership, you can play 6 Holes, 9 holes, 12 holes. Sure you can pay for 18 holes at a public course, but it is just human instinct to "get your money's worth". At a private club, you can practice and play three holes, and the payment is the same, so you may play more often.


3) Friends who are Members - We all travel in Tribes.


I looked into buying my son a membership at Pensacola Country Club, but it only works if he has #3 to play with.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,


I would argue the economics of golfnow or other subsidized government golf beats any private course.


Sunk cost. How long does a milinnial stay in one location?


Tribes? Sorry the boy is woke. I suggest you get that way yourself.

[Mike Sweeney]

Tribes? Sorry the boy is woke. I suggest you get that way yourself.

We are a Military family (now), and the Military is the most Tribal of anything I have ever been associated with. It is also the most "woke" of ANY Tribe in the USA.


Try again!!

[John Kavanaugh]

I didn't want to bring it up but the military also has outanding subsidized golf opportunities. Well deserved that is.

[Mike Sweeney]

I didn't want to bring it up but the military also has outanding subsidized golf opportunities. Well deserved that is.

And the fake news continues: 


Such scrutiny and claims ignore the fact that since 2011, all of the courses in the continental U.S. are required by federal law to be completely self-sufficient and receive no taxpayer dollars, and the small number of courses overseas get scant funding.

https://www.thengfq.com/2018/09/military-golf-in-the-u-s/


Yes, I realize that US-based Military courses did not have to "buy" the courses from Military's balance sheet, and that is the point. The land and infrastructure is still owned by Taxpayers, but if they don't cover their cost, they will be gone.


Obviously Military courses overseas are covered by all sorts of complicated treaties and such.

[Dave Doxey]

No technical solution to the slow play problem.


Shot clocks in golf would be a disaster to implement.


Other sports with shot clocks have only one clock.  Golf would need one per group.
Shot clocks are visible to players in the other sports.  How to do that in golf?
Imagine the disputes arising when shot clock penalties decide a tournament.  Do we get video review?  Challenges?


Without a shot clock,  assessing penalties is difficult, as it it arbitrary - up to an official.  How to ensure that it is applied universally and fairly? Imagine the first time a penalty decides a tournament. Challenges? Lawsuits?


The only possible solution that I can think of is a process of shaming slow players.  If the tour kept a "slow player leader board" and TV showed it each week, the slowest players would surface and maybe be embarrassed.  Kevin Na seemed to work on speed after being called out.  Kutcher was ashamed in the caddie pay situation and tried to make amends.  Peer pressure is what keeps play faster at private clubs.


That said, I can't imagine ever watching televised golf without a DVR.  I haven't watched golf on TV live in recent memory.  I can get through a 3 hour telecast in under 2 hours.  I just wait until an hour or so after the telecast begins and finish the DVR session close to the live finish time.  30 second skip button avoids commercials (5 skips), sponsor interviews (3 skips), non-shot fluff pieces.  One skip usually reduces the pre-shot waste.  Fast forward handles weather delays.  As long as the skip button my remote does not wear out, I'm fine.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,


I apologize, the ocean is causing a glare on my phone so my research abilities are quite limited. I do believe however that active military and veterans are given subsidies often not available to civilians. Such as the following:


http://www.odysseygolffoundation.org/veterans_programs/

[John Kavanaugh]

My only point being. Even for veterans or active duty, why pay full boat unless you want to avoid slow play at the public courses?

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,


I apologize, the ocean is causing a glare on my phone so my research abilities are quite limited. I do believe however that active military and veterans are given subsidies often not available to civilians. Such as the following:


http://www.odysseygolffoundation.org/veterans_programs/

If you sign up for the Navy, they will teach you how to deal with ocean glare on your phone, AND you get the Military discounts too. Here is a 63 year old Surgeon who just signed up:


https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/07/16/hes-63-just-joined-navy-and-says-im-my-prime.html


They probably do want Asphalt guys to build roads...

[jeffwarne]

Penalizing groups for an absolute time doesn't solve it.
Everyone behind is screwed and then the dick group sprints the last 2 holes.
There are dozens of people doing God knows what inside the ropes at every event.
Give a large digital clock to the guy who holds up the stupid "quiet please" sign
Use it for a month with no penalties and post ..the slowest 10 players every week.
Then start the penalties.

[MCirba]

Can we have a show of hands from all the "woke" guys on this thread?

Or don't woke guys do that?   I'm so confused.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,


I apologize, the ocean is causing a glare on my phone so my research abilities are quite limited. I do believe however that active military and veterans are given subsidies often not available to civilians. Such as the following:


http://www.odysseygolffoundation.org/veterans_programs/

If you sign up for the Navy, they will teach you how to deal with ocean glare on your phone, AND you get the Military discounts too. Here is a 63 year old Surgeon who just signed up:


https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/07/16/hes-63-just-joined-navy-and-says-im-my-prime.html


They probably do want Asphalt guys to build roads...

Have you ever see the kill rate for the Seabees? There are some brave asphalt guys out there. I ain't one of em.

[MCirba]

Mike -
you're suggesting that technology and psychology go hand in hand; that advances in the former are mirrored by an obsession with the latter; that, just as today's players 'need' a 460 cc driver (whereas 190 cc used to serve for decades) so too do modern tour pros 'need' a team of physical & mental health professionals and elaborate pre-shot routines (whereas they used to get by on nothing more than bourbon & bile); and that as course lengths have become irrelevant (with ever increasing distance gains) the pros have turned their attention inwards, to the space between their ears, as the 'driver' of better golf, lower scores, and an advantage over the field.
I think you're on to something: those old pros sure played quickly & well with that old equipment, straw fedoras, 'teams' of one, some late nights at the bar, and no other 'thoughts' than winning every single time out.

Peter Pallotta,

It warms my heart and soul on this cold, wintry day that you get me.   

You really, really get me!   

[JESII]

Why on earth would anyone involved with the PGA Tour want the Cialis tubs to have less air time? Cialis certainly doesn't...


Local slow play can and should be handled at the local level...

[John Kavanaugh]

You can not solve slow play unless the player is invested in the culture of the course.

[JESII]

And every course should strive to have the people that play there (member or not) invested in its culture...

[MCirba]

Do "woke guys" use Cialis?

Asking for a friend.

[JESII]

No...they'd be "shook"..."woke" comes next...

[jeffwarne]

And every course should strive to have the people that play there (member or not) invested in its culture...

While this is very true of the clubs you patronize and I work at and patronize, having heros line up 35 footers for 2 1/2 minutes(before 3 putting) sets a horrendous example for the golf world, and normalizes such behavior making it impossible/very hard work to overcome at resorts, daily fees and elsewhere without an ingrained culture of faster play.
It's already infected the clubs on the tourist rota in the UK which used to be the home of the three hour round-now it's 5 if you tee off after 9 am due to the standard lowering money grab.(and it's not just Americans)

[John Kavanaugh]

The only culture you need at a private club is one of open communication. Yes it can get ugly at times. You don't have to call the pro or tattle to the manager. Just educate a fellow member on what he is doing wrong and hug it out.