$10M & Change

[Edward Glidewell]

I haven't played #2 yet, but I've talked/played with a mid-single digit handicap who has played it multiple times. He's also played Mid Pines and Pine Needles numerous times, and #4 once -- he said he'd much rather play any of those three than #2. He finds the greens at #2 so difficult that he doesn't really enjoy playing there. I wonder if anyone else has a similar opinion of #2 compared to those other courses.

[Jeff Loh]

NO 


#2 wines 10-0 over #4 (pre or post whatever)

[John Kavanaugh]

I met a Digest Rater that didn't like Sand Hills. It happens.

[John Kirk]

I think trying to understand the intent requires one to look at what is in the ground rather than looking at a course against a checklist and/or looking for features etc.  For me at least, its easier to set aside my preferences and experience what actually is if get the intent. A high profile example for me is Trump Aberdeen.  I am not keen on much of what was done, but when I put the course in context of it being designed for touring professionals and to move crowds around the course, I am much more sympathetic to the design.  I am very comfortable believing the course delivers, but isn't my bag.  If I didn't know the goals of the design my evaluation would be not be so lenient.  The same could be said at the other end of the spectrum with very short courses which really are designed to get lots of people of all abilities around. That course may seem to easy, short etc, but when viewed against the goals of the design, it may be spot on. 

Ciao

Hi Sean,

If I remember correctly, you have your own system to rate courses, which is something similar to the Michelin restaurant guide.  Based on your comments here, would you be inclined to give a great par-3 course, or any other type of course with a clear intent, a top rating (✭✭✭ in Michelin speak)?

As I've said four or five times earlier in this thread, I just try to keep an open mind, aware of my various biases I've noted over the years.  You can't predict when you'll have a much better than average day playing golf.  Sometimes a mundane looking golf course presents a beautiful day of play.  The day I played North Berwick with two Mikes and a Mary, the relatively plain opening holes were yielding shots and results that were just wonderful.  The day was spectacular well before we turned back and started playing the series of show stopping holes on the way in.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I met a Digest Rater that didn't like Sand Hills. It happens.

Should have shot him.

[Kalen Braley]

I haven't played #2 yet, but I've talked/played with a mid-single digit handicap who has played it multiple times. He's also played Mid Pines and Pine Needles numerous times, and #4 once -- he said he'd much rather play any of those three than #2. He finds the greens at #2 so difficult that he doesn't really enjoy playing there. I wonder if anyone else has a similar opinion of #2 compared to those other courses.

#2 sounds like an absolute nightmare for higher handicap players....Even if you can get hole high in two there is so much trouble around the crowned greens with bunkers and slopes otherwise, sounds like a double bogey slog...

[Edward Glidewell]

It's not so much that he didn't like #2 -- he thinks it's a great golf course, and it's not like he refuses to play there. He just thinks the greens are so hard that he has more fun playing the other excellent courses in the area.


So it was less about overall quality of design and more about general fun.

[John Kavanaugh]

I haven't played #2 yet, but I've talked/played with a mid-single digit handicap who has played it multiple times. He's also played Mid Pines and Pine Needles numerous times, and #4 once -- he said he'd much rather play any of those three than #2. He finds the greens at #2 so difficult that he doesn't really enjoy playing there. I wonder if anyone else has a similar opinion of #2 compared to those other courses.

#2 sounds like an absolute nightmare for higher handicap players....Even if you can get hole high in two there is so much trouble around the crowned greens with bunkers and slopes otherwise, sounds like a double bogey slog...

The only thing that most high handicaps find difficult at #2 is that it is cart path only.

[Sean_A]

I think trying to understand the intent requires one to look at what is in the ground rather than looking at a course against a checklist and/or looking for features etc.  For me at least, its easier to set aside my preferences and experience what actually is if get the intent. A high profile example for me is Trump Aberdeen.  I am not keen on much of what was done, but when I put the course in context of it being designed for touring professionals and to move crowds around the course, I am much more sympathetic to the design.  I am very comfortable believing the course delivers, but isn't my bag.  If I didn't know the goals of the design my evaluation would be not be so lenient.  The same could be said at the other end of the spectrum with very short courses which really are designed to get lots of people of all abilities around. That course may seem to easy, short etc, but when viewed against the goals of the design, it may be spot on. 

Ciao

Hi Sean,

If I remember correctly, you have your own system to rate courses, which is something similar to the Michelin restaurant guide. Based on your comments here, would you be inclined to give a great par-3 course, or any other type of course with a clear intent, a top rating (✭✭✭ in Michelin speak)?

As I've said four or five times earlier in this thread, I just try to keep an open mind, aware of my various biases I've noted over the years.  You can't predict when you'll have a much better than average day playing golf.  Sometimes a mundane looking golf course presents a beautiful day of play.  The day I played North Berwick with two Mikes and a Mary, the relatively plain opening holes were yielding shots and results that were just wonderful.  The day was spectacular well before we turned back and started playing the series of show stopping holes on the way in.

John

Yes, in theory I would give any course of intent a 3*, but in the case of a par 3 course it would be incredibly difficult because it simply wouldn't have much relative variety.  Ironically, lack of variety can also be a failing for courses designed to test the best.  In general, after hitting a certain level of difficulty, the harder a course is, the less variety there will be because whatever elements (yardage, rough, water etc) which make the course difficult will invariably be over-emphasized.  It should be no surprise then that the only championship courses I have played which I give 3* don't involve (or don't have to involve if the right tees are chosen) much of the traditional elements which make a course a difficult...and they are TOC and Pinehurst #2.  Before the rough was removed I thought far less of #2 and it was simply another championship course gone astray.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

#2 sounds like an absolute nightmare for higher handicap players....Even if you can get hole high in two there is so much trouble around the crowned greens with bunkers and slopes otherwise, sounds like a double bogey slog...

You don't want to play hole high in two unless you are confident you are going to hit the green . . . otherwise you'd be better off playing short and straight.  That's what makes it genius, it punishes you for thinking you are better than you are.  [See also:  Royal Dornoch, Ballybunion]

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Thank you for confirming what i suspected based on pics and aerials. 

It just seems like a tough ask for a High Capper, who already doesn't have the greatest control as it is, to intentionally miss every green straight away and short in the hope of maybe getting a miracle up and down on those difficult greens. Yes maybe this will result in fewer double bogeys as opposed to being hole high and woefully out of position, but isn't fun golf supposed to at least give a reasonable chance for par for most players instead of standing on every tee and conceding par is very unlikely.

P.S.  I have no issue with courses for horses for golfers who want to be challenged.  I just don't understand the sentiment that #2 is a course for most other golfers...

[John Kavanaugh]

I promise you that an 18 handicap will shoot a lower net score than a 5 at #2. It is by far the easiest of all US Open courses for high handicaps.

[Kalen Braley]

I promise you that an 18 handicap will shoot a lower net score than a 5 at #2. It is by far the easiest of all US Open courses for high handicaps.

John,

That's an interesting premise, that could very well be.  But given nearly all high cappers have mediocre to terrible short game skills (chipping/pitching/bunker play), including myself... and this seemingly being the course's primary defense, its hard to square that up.

[Thomas Dai]

#2 sounds like an absolute nightmare for higher handicap players....Even if you can get hole high in two there is so much trouble around the crowned greens with bunkers and slopes otherwise, sounds like a double bogey slog...

You don't want to play hole high in two unless you are confident you are going to hit the green . . . otherwise you'd be better off playing short and straight.  That's what makes it genius, it punishes you for thinking you are better than you are.  [See also:  Royal Dornoch, Ballybunion]

+1 ...... see also Tommy Armours book “How to play your best golf all the time”.
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

Why argue about a great resort course that has made millions of golfers of all levels happy for many years?


The proof is in the pudding when it hosted the Cisopens a few years back. Few other courses are capable.

[Carl Rogers]

#2 sounds like an absolute nightmare for higher handicap players....Even if you can get hole high in two there is so much trouble around the crowned greens with bunkers and slopes otherwise, sounds like a double bogey slog...

You don't want to play hole high in two unless you are confident you are going to hit the green . . . otherwise you'd be better off playing short and straight.  That's what makes it genius, it punishes you for thinking you are better than you are.  [See also:  Royal Dornoch, Ballybunion]

That is my experience in my 1 round at #2.  A do over would make me try to hit the area of green complex that would allow for the simplest next shot.  I need another round there.


Back to the OP, I wonder what investment has been required to bring Royal New Kent back?

[Wade Whitehead]

Back to the OP, I wonder what investment has been required to bring Royal New Kent back?

Carl: Royal New Kent is reopening at the end of March!

It sold for $1.1 million and the new owners (last I read) have invested an additional $2 million on restoration.

WW

[jim_lewis]

I have played #2 with players with handicaps ranging from zero to 20. I have found that the mid-high handicappers do better than the 5-10 handicappers relative to their expectations. #2 is not that hard for the player who is happy with a bogey. It can be very frustrating for the 7 handicapper who thinks he should par the course. Or as Tom Doak mentioned, the player who thinks he is better than he is. Most high handicappers don't suffer from the same delusion.

[Jay Mickle]

Very tough par course. Reasonable bogey course. Go for the center of the greens.

[Mike Bodo]

If you had capital (say $10M (US)), what course(s) would you buy?

Rules: Course must have sufficient architectural merit and be currently for sale or under ownership that might be willing to sell.  Wondering about pure golf properties (no tennis, no pool, etc.).

Wondering if there are hidden (or obvious) gems that fit either criterion.

I'm not talking about repurposing...focused on golf courses that would remain as such.

A couple of years ago, I might have said Dismal River, but it doesn't fit anymore.

WW

Wade, going back to your original question, I would purchase a course less than 2 mi.'s down the road from me called Pine View Golf Course which contains a full 18 and an executive 9 hole course and have fellow Michigander, Tom Doak work his magic and create a Championship 18, with a state of the art practice facility, clubhouse with a top-notch restaurant and lounge and pro shop that rivals any private club or public course in SE Michigan.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pine+View+Golf+Course/@42.2058049,-83.6278019,1045m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xeca324183b77dd17!8m2!3d42.2041497!4d-83.6210514


The property has been in neglect for several years, yet the owners continue to trudge along. In fact, it's gotten so bad there that they no longer moto rake the few sand traps on the course as they no longer have the equipment to do it. That said, the course sits on a beautiful piece of rolling terrain with some very interesting elevation changes. Several fairways and green complexes are framed by picturesque tall stands of pine trees that have to be around 100 yrs., I'm guessing. If someone were to wave $1.5 million in cash in the owners face they'd hand you the keys to castle and wish you good luck.


With Eastern Michigan University's Eagle Crest Golf Club and Resort just three miles away from this property, the two courses could literally feed off of each other and form a true SE Michigan golf vacation destination (Eagle Crest has a nice 4-star hotel operated by the Marriott to house golfing guests). Heck, if you were to throw Washtenaw Golf Club into the mix, which is only seven or eight miles away from both properties, you'd have the makings for a great Friday, Sat. and Sunday golf weekend or retreat.


Someone is going to buy this property - either a real estate developer who will build residential homes or perhaps Eastern Michigan University, to add a second golf property to the existing one they have for the reasons stated above. I mean, how nice would it be to have shuttle service from the hotel at Eagle Crest to Pine View Golf Course, or whatever it will be renamed and have a courtesy shuttle take you back at the end of a great golfing day?


As far as the actual course itself is concerned; I would want Tom to come up with essentially the Pinehurst #2 and or Lost Dunes of SE Michigan. I envision a course with wide-open spaces and a lot of sandy waste areas, with the pine trees that are currently present flanking them. Of course, beautiful and challenging green complexes with complimentary surrounds are a must and I would expect nothing less from Tom. That said, there is plenty of land to work with there to come up with a 7,200 - 7,500 yard Championship course that blows people away. Considering Tom doesn't have a signature course in the area, this could be his jewel and legacy.


Of course, this is all a pipe dream. But you asked the question and I gave you an answer and a legitimate one at that. 

[John Kavanaugh]

A Championship Signature Doak course. Please hold enough money back to construct an appropriate bronze statue.

[Mike Bodo]

Please hold enough money back to construct an appropriate bronze statue.

LOL! With hair or without hair?

[archie_struthers]

 


For you investment cognoscenti out there, what kind of return would one need to make on a $10,000,000 golf club to justify the purchase assuming no real estate sale is involved at the outset?  Who would be the logical buyers of a long term hold such as this?

[Sean_A]

If you had capital (say $10M (US)), what course(s) would you buy?

Rules: Course must have sufficient architectural merit and be currently for sale or under ownership that might be willing to sell.  Wondering about pure golf properties (no tennis, no pool, etc.).

Wondering if there are hidden (or obvious) gems that fit either criterion.

I'm not talking about repurposing...focused on golf courses that would remain as such.

A couple of years ago, I might have said Dismal River, but it doesn't fit anymore.

WW

Wade, going back to your original question, I would purchase a course less than 2 mi.'s down the road from me called Pine View Golf Course which contains a full 18 and an executive 9 hole course and have fellow Michigander, Tom Doak work his magic and create a Championship 18, with a state of the art practice facility, clubhouse with a top-notch restaurant and lounge and pro shop that rivals any private club or public course in SE Michigan.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pine+View+Golf+Course/@42.2058049,-83.6278019,1045m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xeca324183b77dd17!8m2!3d42.2041497!4d-83.6210514

The property has been in neglect for several years, yet the owners continue to trudge along. In fact, it's gotten so bad there that they no longer moto rake the few sand traps on the course as they no longer have the equipment to do it. That said, the course sits on a beautiful piece of rolling terrain with some very interesting elevation changes. Several fairways and green complexes are framed by picturesque tall stands of pine trees that have to be around 100 yrs., I'm guessing. If someone were to wave $1.5 million in cash in the owners face they'd hand you the keys to castle and wish you good luck.

With Eastern Michigan University's Eagle Crest Golf Club and Resort just three miles away from this property, the two courses could literally feed off of each other and form a true SE Michigan golf vacation destination (Eagle Crest has a nice 4-star hotel operated by the Marriott to house golfing guests). Heck, if you were to throw Washtenaw Golf Club into the mix, which is only seven or eight miles away from both properties, you'd have the makings for a great Friday, Sat. and Sunday golf weekend or retreat.

Someone is going to buy this property - either a real estate developer who will build residential homes or perhaps Eastern Michigan University, to add a second golf property to the existing one they have for the reasons stated above. I mean, how nice would it be to have shuttle service from the hotel at Eagle Crest to Pine View Golf Course, or whatever it will be renamed and have a courtesy shuttle take you back at the end of a great golfing day?

As far as the actual course itself is concerned; I would want Tom to come up with essentially the Pinehurst #2 and or Lost Dunes of SE Michigan. I envision a course with wide-open spaces and a lot of sandy waste areas, with the pine trees that are currently present flanking them. Of course, beautiful and challenging green complexes with complimentary surrounds are a must and I would expect nothing less from Tom. That said, there is plenty of land to work with there to come up with a 7,200 - 7,500 yard Championship course that blows people away. Considering Tom doesn't have a signature course in the area, this could be his jewel and legacy.

Of course, this is all a pipe dream. But you asked the question and I gave you an answer and a legitimate one at that. 

Gulp...I used to play Pine View in a beer league years ago.  It was bloody awful then!  Mind you, I never cared for the Eastern Michigan course either, its alright, but another missed opportunity course built in an era of mediocrity.  I would be far more interested in UM selling their course to someone who cares enough to properly look after it.  I suspect that land is worth far more than $10,000,000

Ciao

[Mike Bodo]

Gulp...I used to play Pine View in a beer league years ago.  It was bloody awful then!  Mind you, I never cared for the Eastern Michigan course either, its alright, but another missed opportunity course built in an era of mediocrity.  I would be far more interested in UM selling their course to someone who cares enough to properly look after it.  I suspect that land is worth far more than $10,000,000

Ciao

Problem is UM's course isn't going to become available for purchase anytime soon. Pine View sits on a very nice piece of land, but you can tell it was built on a shoestring budget and it has shown the ravages of time (BTW, I got a chuckle out of your beer league reference, as there is a lot of truth to that to this day  ). Having said that, it's a realistically obtainable property and were you to merge the full 18 with the executive 9, there's nearly 8,000 yds of developed tract that you can make a heck of a great 18 hole championship course from if done properly and I emphasize "if". Say what you want about Eagle Crest, but a lot of people love the course and it has some interesting holes and spectacular views. I don't personally care for it. It's just okay, in my mind, but it's a solid course. I much prefer Washtenaw over it for its legendary and iconic bones and is why I bought a season pass there this year. That said, take Washtenaw, Eagle Crest and the reimagined Pine View as a cluster and you have a triumvirate of good to great playable public courses within close proximity of each other that touch upon the Golden Age, Dark Age and what I call the Enlightened Age of golf course architecture.