[Mike_Young]

For 95%, yes....if maintenance conditions are good.

[Tom_Doak]

The 4th at Pacific Dunes is a great hole and the ocean plays a part in that. The tee placement, the left fairway bunker, the bunkers left of the green, the dune left of the green covered with unplayable vegetation, and the depth of the green also play a part in its greatness. Both the site of the hole and its design play equal parts in its greatness. I was little bit disappointed to read Tom saying "The real genius was in making the desert out of bounds". If all of the design elements of PD #4 were in the middle of the Arizona desert, it would be a good hole. But, you would need to manufacture the effect that the ocean has on that hole. Dig out a large pond or lake? Slap some OB stakes all the way down the right? Both options sound bad. PD #4 is great because of the site and the design.Variety in setting and design make great golf.

You can't put 18 holes on the ocean and get the affect that you want. #7 at Old Mac and #4 at Bandon Dunes use the ocean to create something you can't get if you started on the ocean and stayed there. On both courses you know the ocean is there. When you come around the corner at BD #4 or climb to top of the ridge at OM #7, you are amazed at the scene and know that you will not experience it anywhere else. Yes, these holes are next to the ocean, but they are also well designed.

If you need an example of a bad course next to the ocean, try Sandpiper in Santa Barbara, CA. I can't imagine a course getting less out of its location that this one.

Brock:


The hole at Pacific Dunes requires the fear of the cliff edge for all the other features to have their full effect.  Likewise, the hole at Talking Stick leverages the fear of o.b.  You could claim that the desert in Arizona is a hazard that should be feared on its own, but there are tons of courses there with desert in play on every hole, to the point that golfers largely ignore it as a factor in their strategy.


P.S.  In recent years, several architects have been asked to look at Sandpiper and try to devise a better routing.  It's not as simple as you make it sound, otherwise it would already have been changed.  Sometimes the contours of the ground and the dimensions of the property don't work together nearly as well as you want them to.

[Steve Lang]

   Should same be said for being on or seeing Lake Michigan?


Even Elmbrook touts their glimpse of Grand Traverse Bay

[Brock Lynch]

Brock:


The hole at Pacific Dunes requires the fear of the cliff edge for all the other features to have their full effect.  Likewise, the hole at Talking Stick leverages the fear of o.b.  You could claim that the desert in Arizona is a hazard that should be feared on its own, but there are tons of courses there with desert in play on every hole, to the point that golfers largely ignore it as a factor in their strategy.


P.S.  In recent years, several architects have been asked to look at Sandpiper and try to devise a better routing.  It's not as simple as you make it sound, otherwise it would already have been changed.  Sometimes the contours of the ground and the dimensions of the property don't work together nearly as well as you want them to.

Tom:


I understand what OB brings to the table, I just don't think it's creative to put in OB unless it's absolutely necessary (bordering driving range, homes, roads, etc.)


Good to know that I wasn't completely off on Sandpiper. I'm assuming you took a look at it. I'm curious about your thoughts specifically to the issues there, if you don't mind.

[Scott Warren]

A 105-yard drop shot par three to a tiny green surrounded by sand and a hazard on two sides in a high-wind environment.

Thousands? Name me 5.

I can name 5 within 20 miles of where i am now, the drop shot par 3 is very common in the UK :- 17 Manor House, 17 Saltford, 6 Knowle, 7 Bristol & Clifton, 4 Clevedon. All would be greatly improved by an ocean backdrop. The view is the big thing, a downhill start is a good thing, but it is that view/natural situation that probably makes PB 7 the best par 3 in the world if you had a peoples vote, take that away and just have the drop then that hole is back in the pack.

Adrian, the holes you named are 189 yards, 156 yards, 154 yards and 130 yards (4 at Clevedon is a par five). The 7th at Pebble beach is 105 yards.


There is a small amount of water on only a couple of them and all have significant areas of short grass adjoining the green where you can miss.


Reality is, the holes you've named are not really at all like the 7th at Pebble. They're downhill par threes, but the similarity ends there.

[Niall C]

Niall

You could almost say ALL HOLES ARE AVERAGE. The +/- is the view.
[/quote]

Adrian

I disagree. Clearly some are better than others. The view might make a hole more memorable but it doesn't make it better. As an aside, nearly all the shots you see of the 7th at PB are taken from behind the 6th green and I think slightly higher up. Certainly it would be a better/more interesting angle to play from and make it a better hole without changing the view.

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Niall

You could almost say ALL HOLES ARE AVERAGE. The +/- is the view.

Adrian

I disagree. Clearly some are better than others. The view might make a hole more memorable but it doesn't make it better. As an aside, nearly all the shots you see of the 7th at PB are taken from behind the 6th green and I think slightly higher up. Certainly it would be a better/more interesting angle to play from and make it a better hole without changing the view.

Niall
Niall- You can obviously make a case that every single hole is unique if you take things to the nth degree, I am being a bit cheeky but basically there are certain standard features which don't change for golf, everything is either better or worse by the land or surroundings to how that hole sits. The view itself can probably change a great technically good hole to a minger if it wraps around a sewage works, if it wraps around an ocean with cliffs and inlets it becomes outstanding. The 7th at PB is outstanding because of how the hole integrates with the setting and view.

[Buck Wolter]

Maybe Cape Wickham is as good as or better than the courses at BD but with better views

[JBovay]

Obviously, no.


Bodega Harbour has 18 ocean-view holes and doesn't feature on any lists. Same goes for Crail Balcomie.


But the ocean-view holes definitely improve the quality of the experience. Would Bodega Harbour exist if it were just on the other side of the ridge, without the ocean view and associated real-estate development? Could it have stayed open this long without so many ocean-view holes? Would any of you have played Crail if it were on the other side of the road, e.g., across the street from Kingsbarns?


If one is not sophisticated in thinking about golf course architecture, ocean views are an easy way to characterize (and remember) courses. I play often at Shennecossett, and I often skip 15-17: two layup holes and a bland par 3, shoehorned in between roads and wetlands but with a view of the Long Island Sound. Other golfers have told me I was missing the best part. And when I played Cabot, the only thing I could tell my non-golfer friend about it was the number of ocean-view holes.


Both the Golf Digest and Golf Magazine top 100 public U.S. course lists feature 10 ocean- or Great Lake-view courses among their top 20, not counting Pasatiempo's distant view of Monterey Bay.

[Tom_Doak]

Maybe Cape Wickham is as good as or better than the courses at BD but with better views

Maybe - and it would be fine if someone was making that argument.  Have you been there?

[Buck Wolter]

Maybe Cape Wickham is as good as or better than the courses at BD but with better views

Maybe - and it would be fine if someone was making that argument.  Have you been there?

No but all 3 are on my bucket list.

[Mark_Fine]

Why is Fisher's Island ranked so high among Raynor's designs?  I love the golf course but could it be because 17 of the holes have water views? 


I have stated on this site numerous times, location and long range views ARE part of the architecture in my opinion - they sure as hell influence it.  Why did Fazio set Shadow Creek five to ten feet down and berm up the sides so the golfer has NO views of the desert?  The only views you have of the surrounds are the long range views of the mountains.  You think you are in North Carolina not in a desert.  Sorry but the views matter!  Plant a corn field to the left of the 18th hole at Pebble Beach and it totally changes the quality of the golf hole.  Sorry but it does.  One of the reasons Sand Hills is so spectacular is because you can see golf holes in every direction for miles and miles.  Surround Sand Hills with housing developments and shopping centers and the total character of the golf course changes.  Sorry but it does.  Pine Valley sit on 275 acres or more and the separation of the holes is very special.  Build homes in between and the charm and uniqueness of the golf course totally changes.  Sorry but it does.  Build a Burger King beyond the 17th green at The National along the road and guess what, your feeling about the quality of the hole changes.  Sorry but it does.  I remember playing Troon CC in the desert and using a gas grill on a deck behind of one the greens to line up my approach shot     Years before there was nothing beyond that hole but infinity and desert.  Sorry but it matters. 


Are the views (in Tom's question, ocean views) the only thing that matters - No.  But they sure have a major influence on one's perception of a golf hole/course.


As someone pointed out, why do you pay double the price for an "ocean view" room that is identical to one that looks out over the parking lot?  Because it is not really the same room 

[AChao]

Tom … I have no science to back this up, but my suspicion is that if you had 2 nearly identical holes - one with an ocean background and one without -- and asked 100 golfers which hole was better, over 75% would choose the ocean one for the simple reason that looking at the ocean does something … maybe more endorphins are released, they feel more relaxed … or something like that.  Similar to how most people when given the opportunity for a) saving 50% of the population or b) letting 50% of the population die (with living or dying the only choice in a) or b) … will be adamant about choosing a).


I think with Pine Valley and Shadow Creek, the trees create an environment or containment while Sand Hills blends into it's environment.


 

I don't mean to pick on Jeff Schley in his post about Australia's courses, because it's hardly the first time I've seen someone do this, but I begin to wonder if anyone actually cares much about design when I read an analysis like this:

• Barnbougle Dunes and Lost Farm were helpful to discuss because they were played on consecutive days and the holes tended to run together in people's minds. Both were deemed outstanding, with 2/3 of the group favoring Dunes over LF. I'm a big C&C fan and as I said almost had LF ahead of the Dunes. Perhaps after being spoiled by King Island ocean views so consistently, the group was disappointed there weren't more ocean view holes. Make no mistake both courses did get Top 100 accolades from everyone certainly, but at this level you are deciding which diamonds are best so best to keep it in perspective.
• [/l][/l][/l][/l]

When we were routing Pacific Dunes - and I'm sure for Bandon Dunes before that - Mr. Keiser kept a tally out loud of how many "ocean holes" there were in the routing.  I thought it was simplistic, but since he wasn't visualizing a finished golf hole the same way I was, it was something to fall back on.  And of course, Mr. Keiser knew his audience, and looking at the ocean was a very big factor in how much they would like the course.


I just find it dispiriting that even after all the work to build them, and the creation of a lot of great golf holes, the analysis of three great courses comes right back to "how many ocean view holes" each course had, with very little mention of which of them the observer found compelling.

To be sure, building golf holes beside the ocean is a huge head start in most cases.  You're probably going to have wind, and you're probably going to have interesting contour, and it's probably not going to be 100+ degrees; and all of those factors might be more important to the golf than the view. 

Pine Valley has no "ocean holes", and neither does The Old Course at St. Andrews.  Or Sand Hills.  Discussion of them usually revolves around great golf holes.  But when you're by the ocean, it seems like that's all a lot of people see.  [/q]
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