[Adrian_Stiff]

Of course ocean views are a legit element to consider.  Anyone who plays golf understands the connect between the game and the seaside on some level.  Many more casual and less GCA conscious golfers make judgements on aesthetics alone and judge courses based on how they played that day - and that is fine for what it’s worth.  I think the value premium placed on golf holes by the ocean parallels the value of real estate on the ocean in general. 

I never suggested they weren't a legitimate element to consider, or part of the equation.  I am concerned that they seem to be the whole equation, and that people discount or devalue the strategy of the golf holes they are playing when they have an ocean view.

I think for most people it is even WATER not just the Ocean, but primarily views win over a great technical hole, there is only some much in strategic golf, trying to reinvent the wheel usually ends up in disaster. There are thousands of holes like the 7th at Pebble, if you took the ocean away it would just be another.

[Thomas Dai]

Would it be excessively cynical to wonder if the recently revised 7th at Royal Dornoch and the 9th at Cruden Bay would have been shifted closer to the respective cliff edges if there hadn't been water and a nice view involved?
atb

[Scott Warren]

Of course ocean views are a legit element to consider.  Anyone who plays golf understands the connect between the game and the seaside on some level.  Many more casual and less GCA conscious golfers make judgements on aesthetics alone and judge courses based on how they played that day - and that is fine for what it’s worth.  I think the value premium placed on golf holes by the ocean parallels the value of real estate on the ocean in general. 

I never suggested they weren't a legitimate element to consider, or part of the equation.  I am concerned that they seem to be the whole equation, and that people discount or devalue the strategy of the golf holes they are playing when they have an ocean view.

I think for most people it is even WATER not just the Ocean, but primarily views win over a great technical hole, there is only some much in strategic golf, trying to reinvent the wheel usually ends up in disaster. There are thousands of holes like the 7th at Pebble, if you took the ocean away it would just be another.

A 105-yard drop shot par three to a tiny green surrounded by sand and a hazard on two sides in a high-wind environment.


Thousands? Name me 5.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: Am I correct that when you were designing Old Mac that you were told that you had to get out to a point where you had an ocean view? 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom: Am I correct that when you were designing Old Mac that you were told that you had to get out to a point where you had an ocean view?

No, I wouldn’t say it that way. 


Mr Keiser wanted to put the halfway house up on top of the dune ridge, and it seemed awfully far out of the way from where we had the green originally (#7 Green was going to be about where #8 is now).  Before that, I had not contemplated making the 20-foot cut to create the present green site, because I didn’t think we would be allowed to do it. 


When I suggested the possibility, Mr Keiser was quick to jump on it, but if he had been thinking of it previously he played it very coy.

[Jerry Kluger]

It did work out rather well.

[Ira Fishman]

Is Number 7 at Old Mac an example of the Ocean View having an outsized impact on how we assess the quality of the architecture?


Ira

[Jim Nugent]

Would 8 at Pebble be considered so great without the ocean?  Never played, but as I understand it in the modern game you lay up off the tee, often with an iron, then hit a mid-iron to the green.  Requires precision, to a small target, but what is great about dictating the tee shot and approach, other than the exhilarating surroundings? 

[jeffwarne]

What's ironic is that ponds are vilified on this site, and absolute deal breakers on a links course for many, and ocean holes/views  are always glorified.


Ironically, the ocean itself on a links is almost never part of a strategic or heroic option(usually way too far away with exceptions such as Pacific Dunes or #2 at North Berwick and Portsalon) they are generally at best simply penal, never entering the mind as part of the shot choice-simply punishing an awful shot, yet many ponds are quite strategic or heroic leading to different choices.

[Tom_Doak]

Is Number 7 at Old Mac an example of the Ocean View having an outsized impact on how we assess the quality of the architecture?

It's a really good view of the ocean.


Overall, though, it's interesting that Old Macdonald hangs in the rankings with Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, both of which have way more ocean view opportunities.

[Jim Nugent]

Here are the world's top 100 courses in the unofficial GCA ratings from ten years ago.  Misses a few courses built after that, but still gives us a pretty good idea of what the people on GCA.com like.  By my count around 12 of the top 20 are not on the ocean, or don't feature ocean views...

[John Kirk]

Relevant to this discussion is a conversation I had last week with my primary Bandon contact.  When the subject of the new course under construction (north of Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald) was mentioned, one of the first things he said was, "Supposedly, it has 11 holes on the ocean."
It's not that important to me.  Besides, the wind seems to blow 50-100% harder when you get right next to the water.  It's nice to get an extended break from the wind during a round.

[Ira Fishman]

Is Number 7 at Old Mac an example of the Ocean View having an outsized impact on how we assess the quality of the architecture?

It's a really good view of the ocean.


Overall, though, it's interesting that Old Macdonald hangs in the rankings with Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, both of which have way more ocean view opportunities.

It may be the best view of an Ocean that I have ever experienced. And it is a really cool hole. But if it were Inland, it would be the subject of spirited debate.


Ira

[Adrian_Stiff]

Of course ocean views are a legit element to consider.  Anyone who plays golf understands the connect between the game and the seaside on some level.  Many more casual and less GCA conscious golfers make judgements on aesthetics alone and judge courses based on how they played that day - and that is fine for what it’s worth.  I think the value premium placed on golf holes by the ocean parallels the value of real estate on the ocean in general. 

I never suggested they weren't a legitimate element to consider, or part of the equation.  I am concerned that they seem to be the whole equation, and that people discount or devalue the strategy of the golf holes they are playing when they have an ocean view.

I think for most people it is even WATER not just the Ocean, but primarily views win over a great technical hole, there is only some much in strategic golf, trying to reinvent the wheel usually ends up in disaster. There are thousands of holes like the 7th at Pebble, if you took the ocean away it would just be another.

A 105-yard drop shot par three to a tiny green surrounded by sand and a hazard on two sides in a high-wind environment.


Thousands? Name me 5.

I can name 5 within 20 miles of where i am now, the drop shot par 3 is very common in the UK :- 17 Manor House, 17 Saltford, 6 Knowle, 7 Bristol & Clifton, 4 Clevedon. All would be greatly improved by an ocean backdrop. The view is the big thing, a downhill start is a good thing, but it is that view/natural situation that probably makes PB 7 the best par 3 in the world if you had a peoples vote, take that away and just have the drop then that hole is back in the pack.

[Brian Walshe]

This is an argument I've had a few times.  Cape Wickham is a very good course and it's is off the scale in terms of views but in my opinion both Barnbougle Dunes and Lost Farm are better courses.  Some people see the view, some people see the architecture and you can argue in circles for hours over the merits you give to each factor. 

[Thomas Dai]

The fact that there are no seaside views is one of the reasons why I’ve always been a huge fan of Carnousties Championship course. It’s about the golf not the views, which when the previous concrete pillbox clubhouse was there and the distillery warehouses too was even less visually attractive than now! Plus the “Bang, bang, bang” from the adjacent military firing range. Proper golf course. Tough as old boots but nicely playable from the appropriate tees with a bit of thought.
Atb

[Mike Bodo]

Here are the world's top 100 courses in the unofficial GCA ratings from ten years ago.  Misses a few courses built after that, but still gives us a pretty good idea of what the people on GCA.com like.  By my count around 12 of the top 20 are not on the ocean, or don't feature ocean views...

Although these rankings may not necessarily reflect a predisposition to courses with ocean or great lakes views, nearly 50% of the Top 20 are. That's a fairly high percentage. To tie this in to the crux of Tom's original comment, were Cypress an inland course or even had fewer ocean view holes would it be ranked nearly as high? It's somewhat of an unfair comparison due to the hazzard the ocean presents on so many holes, but it's something worth considering and discussing.

[Niall C]

Most of us are lazy, so we are quickly seduced by the ocean view, to the detriment of the inland holes. Speaking for myself, this is a first and second trip phenomenon. On my subsequent trips to Bandon and Pebble (for example), I’ve always revelled in what I’d failed to notice on the less visually spectacular holes.

Terry

Agree to a point. I played North Berwick West Links last Sunday, something that I have been fortunate to do quite a few times over the last few years. However, as I said to my host as we stood on the 11th tee overlooking the beach and the water, I haven't played at NB that often that the views have just become background wall paper. That's not to say that I can't tell the difference between a nice view and good golf. A nice view doesn't make good golf but it can make it perhaps more memorable. Where I have an issue is where creating the view seems to become the be all and end all.

Niall

[Niall C]

Of course ocean views are a legit element to consider.  Anyone who plays golf understands the connect between the game and the seaside on some level.  Many more casual and less GCA conscious golfers make judgements on aesthetics alone and judge courses based on how they played that day - and that is fine for what it’s worth.  I think the value premium placed on golf holes by the ocean parallels the value of real estate on the ocean in general. 

I never suggested they weren't a legitimate element to consider, or part of the equation.  I am concerned that they seem to be the whole equation, and that people discount or devalue the strategy of the golf holes they are playing when they have an ocean view.

I think for most people it is even WATER not just the Ocean, but primarily views win over a great technical hole, there is only some much in strategic golf, trying to reinvent the wheel usually ends up in disaster. There are thousands of holes like the 7th at Pebble, if you took the ocean away it would just be another.

A 105-yard drop shot par three to a tiny green surrounded by sand and a hazard on two sides in a high-wind environment.


Thousands? Name me 5.

I can name 5 within 20 miles of where i am now, the drop shot par 3 is very common in the UK :- 17 Manor House, 17 Saltford, 6 Knowle, 7 Bristol & Clifton, 4 Clevedon. All would be greatly improved by an ocean backdrop. The view is the big thing, a downhill start is a good thing, but it is that view/natural situation that probably makes PB 7 the best par 3 in the world if you had a peoples vote, take that away and just have the drop then that hole is back in the pack.

Adrian

I don't disagree with anything you say regarding public taste but I am proud to say that the one time I played Pebble Beach I was underwhelmed by the 7th and thought it a very average hole albeit with a nice view.

Niall

[Niall C]

Interestingly, I was told one of the design goals at Castle Stuart was to get away from having water views at every point, which was a change from Kingsbarns, which has water views everywhere unless you hit a very, very bad shot.  I like the CS, give-and-take approach better.  The loss and subsequent regaining of the view makes you appreciate it more.  When it is always there, you tend to either get spoiled and/or forget about it.

Brett

I don't know the design criteria or reasons for the choice of the site at CS but it is noticeable that both KB and CS are similar in terms of their figure of eight routing and reminiscent to Dornoch in the way that the have more than one level of hole overlooking the water. I do know though that some of the holes were aligned to have features as a backdrop like the castle and the bridge.

I also seem to recall that before he chose the site for CS, Mark Parsinen looked at Balmedie but rejected it because nearly all the views were internal and you couldn't see much of the sea. Could be wrong on that though.

Niall

[Peter Pallotta]

I'd never thought of the 'reverse psychology' angle on this,
i.e. the possibility that, for a certain kind of golfer/gca aficionado, determined not to be duped or overly impressed by an ocean-side setting, the true architectural & strategic worth of a golf hole might actually be missed.
And I suppose the same is true for golf holes framed & dominated by huge swaths of sand/blowouts.
I guess I have to accept that sometimes the melodramatic might offer very good drama too.
Hmm.



Hmm

[Adrian_Stiff]

Of course ocean views are a legit element to consider.  Anyone who plays golf understands the connect between the game and the seaside on some level.  Many more casual and less GCA conscious golfers make judgements on aesthetics alone and judge courses based on how they played that day - and that is fine for what it’s worth.  I think the value premium placed on golf holes by the ocean parallels the value of real estate on the ocean in general. 

I never suggested they weren't a legitimate element to consider, or part of the equation.  I am concerned that they seem to be the whole equation, and that people discount or devalue the strategy of the golf holes they are playing when they have an ocean view.

I think for most people it is even WATER not just the Ocean, but primarily views win over a great technical hole, there is only some much in strategic golf, trying to reinvent the wheel usually ends up in disaster. There are thousands of holes like the 7th at Pebble, if you took the ocean away it would just be another.

A 105-yard drop shot par three to a tiny green surrounded by sand and a hazard on two sides in a high-wind environment.


Thousands? Name me 5.

I can name 5 within 20 miles of where i am now, the drop shot par 3 is very common in the UK :- 17 Manor House, 17 Saltford, 6 Knowle, 7 Bristol & Clifton, 4 Clevedon. All would be greatly improved by an ocean backdrop. The view is the big thing, a downhill start is a good thing, but it is that view/natural situation that probably makes PB 7 the best par 3 in the world if you had a peoples vote, take that away and just have the drop then that hole is back in the pack.

Adrian

I don't disagree with anything you say regarding public taste but I am proud to say that the one time I played Pebble Beach I was underwhelmed by the 7th and thought it a very average hole albeit with a nice view.

Niall

You could almost say ALL HOLES ARE AVERAGE. The +/- is the view.

[Ira Fishman]

I'd never thought of the 'reverse psychology' angle on this,
i.e. the possibility that, for a certain kind of golfer/gca aficionado, determined not to be duped or overly impressed by an ocean-side setting, the true architectural & strategic worth of a golf hole might actually be missed.
And I suppose the same is true for golf holes framed & dominated by huge swaths of sand/blowouts.
I guess I have to accept that sometimes the melodramatic might offer very good drama too.
Hmm.



Hmm

One way to not get duped either way is to focus on the quality of the inland holes. If they are good, you probably are not getting fooled by the Ocean Views. The reverse is also true. The inland holes at Cypress Point and PD are excellent. I thought the inland holes at Castle Stuart were average.


Ira

[Brock Lynch]

The 4th at Pacific Dunes is a great hole and the ocean plays a part in that. The tee placement, the left fairway bunker, the bunkers left of the green, the dune left of the green covered with unplayable vegetation, and the depth of the green also play a part in its greatness. Both the site of the hole and its design play equal parts in its greatness. I was little bit disappointed to read Tom saying "The real genius was in making the desert out of bounds". If all of the design elements of PD #4 were in the middle of the Arizona desert, it would be a good hole. But, you would need to manufacture the effect that the ocean has on that hole. Dig out a large pond or lake? Slap some OB stakes all the way down the right? Both options sound bad. PD #4 is great because of the site and the design.Variety in setting and design make great golf.

You can't put 18 holes on the ocean and get the affect that you want. #7 at Old Mac and #4 at Bandon Dunes use the ocean to create something you can't get if you started on the ocean and stayed there. On both courses you know the ocean is there. When you come around the corner at BD #4 or climb to top of the ridge at OM #7, you are amazed at the scene and know that you will not experience it anywhere else. Yes, these holes are next to the ocean, but they are also well designed.

If you need an example of a bad course next to the ocean, try Sandpiper in Santa Barbara, CA. I can't imagine a course getting less out of its location that this one.

[Matt_Cohn]

It's not just a golf thing. Look at the cost of homes on the ocean, hotel rooms, restaurants, anything. Pebble Beach charges almost 40% more if a room has a view of the ocean instead of the garden. It's the same room!


People (overly?) value being able to see the ocean.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()