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Steve Sayre

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Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« on: February 14, 2019, 11:23:14 AM »
Dan Maples design, opened 1996

https://www.thepilot.com/news/little-river-resort-closes-golf-course/article_5806872e-2ef0-11e9-b6d9-ff5b1f7eadd0.html?utm_source=The+Pilot&utm_campaign=57d514950d-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_02_11_07_29&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_797ed15f6e-57d514950d-14689837

Consensus opinion seemed to place golf at Little River somewhere in the middle of the 40+ course options in and around Pinehurst.  Nice setting, some fun holes. Never achieved financial stability. The final blow as reported by Marvin Waters, the GM, was the failure of a pump station and the resultant $1 million in damage last summer. He also cited the challenge of maintaining Crenshaw bent in the now more mini Bermuda-friendly environs.

From Golf Advisor: "Dan Maples grew up playing golf at Pinehurst and working for his dad in the summers. He designed his first course at age 6 and was driving tractors before he received his driver's license."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2019, 05:44:10 PM »
I got an interview for that job in the early 90's, right after we finished Stonewall.  I thought it was a nice piece of property.  As I recall, the developer seemed interested in me, but then the local banker said he thought they should hire Dan Maples . . .


Just as well I guess, I've had enough of my own courses close.

Cory Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2019, 07:38:50 PM »
Just as well I guess, I've had enough of my own courses close.
I can say with 100% certainty that if you had gotten the job, Little River would never have been in this situation.  The Maples design is part of the reason why the course is having its current issues.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2019, 09:13:22 AM »

I can say with 100% certainty that if you had gotten the job, Little River would never have been in this situation.  The Maples design is part of the reason why the course is having its current issues.


Cory:


Nice of you to say, but definitely not 100%.  Even The Dormie Club went bankrupt.  Timing plays a great role in what happens.

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2019, 10:06:47 AM »
Ive lived in NC 20+ Years, been to PH at least a dozen times, and never heard of this course. Not that’s the definitive answer, but yeah, PH has too many meh courses, and only six~ public excellent ones, per the other concurrent thread.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2019, 10:35:15 AM »

I can say with 100% certainty that if you had gotten the job, Little River would never have been in this situation.  The Maples design is part of the reason why the course is having its current issues.


Cory:


Nice of you to say, but definitely not 100%.  Even The Dormie Club went bankrupt.  Timing plays a great role in what happens.


Just to be clear. The Dormie Club has been purchased and has had an influx of money and is building a clubhouse and cottages to be completed in 2020. Bill Coore is making a few upgrades to the course. It is doing fine.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

David Wuthrich

Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2019, 11:08:07 AM »
Sorry to hear Cory.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2019, 07:45:05 PM »
 8)   Sorry to hear this, played Little River for its first 10 years or so on our spring Golf Carolina tours... the front nine threw a lot at you and I remember a lot of challenge climbing back up 18 to the barn and holing out.   


From looking at Google Earth from Sep 30, 2018, looks like most of the greens have a lot of sand on them, I assume the irrigation problems were major if hitting in the summer, affecting number of plays.  Why couldn't a pump station be repaired or a diesel back-up pump and temporary piping be rigged short term??



Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2019, 11:26:28 AM »

I can say with 100% certainty that if you had gotten the job, Little River would never have been in this situation.  The Maples design is part of the reason why the course is having its current issues.


Cory:


Nice of you to say, but definitely not 100%.  Even The Dormie Club went bankrupt.  Timing plays a great role in what happens.


At first glance I agreed with Cory but you make a good point. Having a big name designer doesn't guarantee anything. I've heard more about C&C Sugarloaf Mountain (Sugarloaf Social club) after it went out of business than I ever heard while it was around. So much so that I'm thinking of starting the Sugarloaf Anti-Social Club.


A couple have mentioned Dormie Club in this thread. The original ethos of Dormie Club was pure golf in an exclusive high-end membership. But even Dormie Club was funded by a guy that wanted to sell the real estate across the lake. And when the housing market crashed he refused to put any more money into it.


To keep this related to architecture, how much does architecture factor into the business plan? The Dormie Network has stated a goal to buy more courses over the next 5 years, and has cited architecture as one of it's criteria in evaluating potential purchases. So even if a club like Little River were doing well, it would not be of interest to the DN because despite being on good land it was not noted for its architecture.

And where does architecture fit on the priority list for business reasons? Is it better to have a northern club that has a shorter season, but outstanding architecture? Or a club with mediocre architecture but in a warmer climate where golf can be played year round?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 01:22:27 PM by Philip 'BDE' Hensley »

Matt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2019, 08:24:09 AM »
Sugarloaf Mountain had the named brand architect, the year-round warm climate, and a unique topography but it didn't have golfers. Neighboring World Woods survived the recession and on my visit, last year had a full tee sheet. The dichotomy between Little River and The Dormie Club and Sugarloaf Mountain and WW is the quality of the golf architecture. One survives economic storms and thrives while the other shutters. 

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2019, 10:25:44 AM »
So by that logic, ipso facto, WW has better architecture than Sugarloaf?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2019, 11:54:57 AM »
Sugarloaf Mountain had the named brand architect, the year-round warm climate, and a unique topography but it didn't have golfers. Neighboring World Woods survived the recession and on my visit, last year had a full tee sheet. The dichotomy between Little River and The Dormie Club and Sugarloaf Mountain and WW is the quality of the golf architecture. One survives economic storms and thrives while the other shutters.


Your point here was pretty garbled.


The point of my post was that "name design" or "architectural quality" are no guarantee of success if other factors fail.


Location [, location, location] is a huge one, although you couldn't say World Woods succeeds based on its location.


Timing is probably the most important thing, in any sort of development project.  The recession hit when Sugarloaf was a couple of years old and still trying to attract customers and sell real estate.  World Woods had been profitable for quite a few years and had a customer base to fall back on, which was huge.


My own first course, High Pointe, was a victim of timing.  The client passed away just before the recession hit, and when it lost money the next year, his son closed it; there were no buyers because of the recession.  Had the client lived five years longer, he would have kept it open during the recession, and it would have found a buyer afterward, I think.  If he had died five years earlier, they probably would have sold it during the boom.


Last but not least, having deep pockets to survive the downturn is also an underrated factor in the success or failure of many projects.

Matt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2019, 01:04:14 AM »
So by that logic, ipso facto, WW has better architecture than Sugarloaf?

Correct, consult Charles Darwin for further clarification. 

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2019, 08:10:58 AM »
So by that logic, ipso facto, WW has better architecture than Sugarloaf?

Correct, consult Charles Darwin for further clarification.


That's... not how any of this works.


I can have the best golf course in the world, architecturally, but if I run that into the ground through management it will fail.
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Matt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2019, 11:10:35 AM »
I disagree, that's not how it works. If the golf course stands on its own architectural merit, someone else will see value and buy it.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 11:17:47 AM by Matt Halliday »

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2019, 01:31:22 PM »
So by that logic, ipso facto, WW has better architecture than Sugarloaf?

Correct, consult Charles Darwin for further clarification.


That's... not how any of this works.


I can have the best golf course in the world, architecturally, but if I run that into the ground through management it will fail.


What are we using as the definition of failing? Of course bad management can run anything into the ground and cause it to go out of business. But someone else can come along and buy it and revive the business. The course didn't fail, the business did. In the meantime, the course is still there. When a golf club goes out of business they don't show up the day of closing and bulldoze the course out of existence.


The question is, using your example; if you have the best golf course in the world, architecturally, and run the business it is attached to into the ground, does the architectural significance guarantee that there will always be someone with money that will think that the problem was bad management, and therefore purchase the course? In that scenario, the course survives. The course does not "fail" until someone changes the land from a golf course to some other purpose.

Matt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2019, 05:46:22 PM »

I can say with 100% certainty that if you had gotten the job, Little River would never have been in this situation.  The Maples design is part of the reason why the course is having its current issues.


Cory:


Nice of you to say, but definitely not 100%.  Even The Dormie Club went bankrupt.  Timing plays a great role in what happens.


At first glance I agreed with Cory but you make a good point. Having a big name designer doesn't guarantee anything. I've heard more about C&C Sugarloaf Mountain (Sugarloaf Social club) after it went out of business than I ever heard while it was around. So much so that I'm thinking of starting the Sugarloaf Anti-Social Club.


A couple have mentioned Dormie Club in this thread. The original ethos of Dormie Club was pure golf in an exclusive high-end membership. But even Dormie Club was funded by a guy that wanted to sell the real estate across the lake. And when the housing market crashed he refused to put any more money into it.


To keep this related to architecture, how much does architecture factor into the business plan? The Dormie Network has stated a goal to buy more courses over the next 5 years, and has cited architecture as one of it's criteria in evaluating potential purchases. So even if a club like Little River were doing well, it would not be of interest to the DN because despite being on good land it was not noted for its architecture.

And where does architecture fit on the priority list for business reasons? Is it better to have a northern club that has a shorter season, but outstanding architecture? Or a club with mediocre architecture but in a warmer climate where golf can be played year round?
The focus has to continue to stay on golf architecture. Someone mentioned Location, Location, Location as being important. Tell that to all the rental cars with Mackenzie bags in tow traveling thru Holyoke, CO, Mullen, NE, Cobbtown, GA, and Cabot, Nova Scotia.
If you build it, they will come.
If you buy it, they will come.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 05:58:05 PM by Matt Halliday »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2019, 07:58:35 PM »
Three of the four courses mentioned are private courses designed for national memberships. That is a completely different business model than a resort or public access. Yes, there are destination resorts that do well because of the architecture and because the location has become cool, but the Pinehurst area, Northern Michigan, and Florida are not places where architecture alone will guarantee success.


Ira

Matt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2019, 08:10:14 PM »


How many Doak 7,8,9, or 10's have permanently closed?

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2019, 09:09:42 PM »
Gee...let's see...
There have been at least TWO books written on the subject.
No deep pockets. No golf. Regardless of "architecture."

Matt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2019, 09:18:08 AM »
It's DARWIN WEEK on GCA!!!


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2019, 11:47:24 AM »
I disagree, that's not how it works. If the golf course stands on its own architectural merit, someone else will see value and buy it.


By this theory, Wolf Point should have buyers lined up to the Gulf to take it off the good widow's hands.


Sorry, with relatively few exceptions, Location³ like Supply & Demand is law. 


BTW, last time I played WW, a couple years ago during the winter season, the place was hardly hopping and I played both courses in under six hours.  I think that the green fee was around $50 and the courses as well as the facilities showed considerable wear and tear.  My suspicion is that the owners are trying to ride things out.  I hope they succeed as I like both courses a lot.   

Matt Halliday

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Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2019, 12:18:54 PM »
Lou,
I don’t disagree with your statement on WW. Maybe a better comparison of great architecture would have been Streamsong.


Could you describe what architectural qualities at Wolf Point make you give it such high praise? It sounds like a golf course I would love to play.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 12:23:11 PM by Matt Halliday »

Kalen Braley

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Re: Little River Closed and for Sale (Carthage, NC)
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2019, 12:36:21 PM »
I can't recall if the reason for BeechTree being closed was discussed on GCA.com.  Was it financial issues, or the land just being worth too much to not sell for residential development?