Tour Pros and Architecture

[JESII]

Which still doesn’t necessarily indicate they’d be better architects, or even have better taste in architecture, does it?

[Mike Bodo]

To further add to my previous comments about tour players appreciation of the golden age courses, here's a excellent quote from Tiger published in Golf Week today regarding Riviera.


"We wish we could play more venues that are classic and simple like this. There’s nothing really — there’s no secret to this golf course. It’s right in front of you, but it’s hard. The greens are. Except for no. 4, everything slopes from back to front and we all know that, don’t go past the hole, but if you do, there’s a price to pay. Over the years they’ve lengthened this golf course quite a bit. We were joking today coming down 12, I remember hitting a 1-iron and a wedge down there. Today was driver, cut 6-iron. It has gotten a little bit different, but we wish we could play more venues like this that are so simple and straightforward, but that’s what makes it just a classic golf course. That’s why there have been so many great champions here. You have to hit the golf ball well. I’m sure this week will be no different."


https://golfweek.com/2019/02/13/pga-tour-golf-what-tiger-woods-said-wednesday-ahead-of-the-genesis-open/


I think if some of the more understated tournaments were held on classic-era courses as opposed to the TPC cookie-cutter tracks many opt to host their events there would be more interest from the top players to tee it up as opposed to skipping them.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'd love to pave the Indianapolis Motor Speedway but I'm thrilled to overlay the local Walmart. Professionals go where the work is.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

Says the guy who rarely plays the AT&T with 3 top notch courses, but rarely misses Bay Hill.  Even Riviera he has skipped more times than he's played it.

Actions speak way louder than words....especially when it comes to Tiger.

[JESII]

Look at what he actually said...would anyone on this board want their course described with these words?


"...Simple...nothing there...right in front of you...straightforward...all the greens slope back-to-front..."


Does this convey a recognition and/or appreciation of great architecture? Or does it convey a comfort level with the demands presented to his game?

[Mike Bodo]

Mike,

Says the guy who rarely plays the AT&T with 3 top notch courses, but rarely misses Bay Hill.  Even Riviera he has skipped more times than he's played it.

Actions speak way louder than words....especially when it comes to Tiger.

There are a lot of top pros that don't play the AT&T. In nearly all instances it has nothing to do with the venue(s), but more the pro-am format and the crappy weather you can encounter in NorCal in Feb. Eliminate the pro-am or reduce it to two days and rest assured more top pro's would show up. A one day pro-am is enough for most guys to deal with on a weekly basis. Four days (provided your team makes the cut) is asking a lot. I can't say I blame them for skipping it - especially with the weather they had to contend with this year.

[Mike Bodo]

Look at what he actually said...would anyone on this board want their course described with these words?


"...Simple...nothing there...right in front of you...straightforward...all the greens slope back-to-front..."


Does this convey a recognition and/or appreciation of great architecture? Or does it convey a comfort level with the demands presented to his game?

I think he is tipping his cap to the golden-age archie's for making courses that are visually appealing, straightforward, but yet challenging and not overly-manufactured and tricked up. The fact he said that he wishes they played more tournaments on courses like Riviera would seem to support this.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

I get the pro-am element, but your comments seem a tad ironic given the deluge of rain yesterday and prior weather issues at The Riv as well.

P.S.  I've often thought many of the top players skipping the At&T is a bit selfish, given they are basically biting the hands that feed them.  Is it too much to ask for one tourney to get some up close and personal time?  For as much flak as Phil gets he rightly makes that tournament a priority.

[Mike Bodo]

Mike,

I get the pro-am element, but your comments seem a tad ironic given the deluge of rain yesterday and prior weather issues at The Riv as well.

P.S.  I've often thought many of the top players skipping the At&T is a bit selfish, given they are basically biting the hands that feed them.  Is it too much to ask for one tourney to get some up close and personal time?  For as much flak as Phil gets he rightly makes that tournament a priority.

You're focusing on one weather element from last week and conveniently leaving out the wind and cold. It was really cold and miserable for a lot of guys last week - pros and amateurs alike.


As an aside, I don't disagree with your assertion that tour players shouldn't bite the hands that feed them, but when push comes to shove touring pros really don't want to play with us amateurs. It's akin to rock stars not really wanting to meet their fans even though they charge $1,000.00/person for a meet and greet.

[John Kavanaugh]

Zac Blair looooooooooves architecture. Ask him if he chooses what events he plays in based on the design.

[Mike Bodo]

Zac Blair looooooooooves architecture. Ask him if he chooses what events he plays in based on the design.

I'm specifically referring to the top players. Not the every-man tour player that needs a paycheck each week to put food on the table and pay bills. The top 60 pick and choose their events each golf calendar year and typically play no more than 20 events total. Heck, Jack rarely played more than 16 tournaments a year. Outside of the majors, he tended only to play events with high cache on courses he enjoyed. Tiger's the same way. There are certain tournaments the top players avoid either because they don't care for the format, the prize money, the course, the weather, the sponsors or a combination of factors. That's been going on for decades and is nothing new.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm happy to learn that the top players don't follow the money. Thanks!!!

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

Thank you for admitting as such with your last statement, that the course and presumably its architecture are only a small part of several factors for where the top pros play.

That was my only point in this exercise. 

[Thomas Dai]

A now aged former leading light on the European Tour, and later an architect himself, once said he'd play on an airport runway if the money was good enough!
atb

[Erik J. Barzeski]

There is a ton of players who can hit the ball like or better than tour pros..

But understanding your game, and playing is what saves the 1-2 stroke a round that makes the difference between being an established tour player and a struggling mini tour guy

You and I may have different definitions of "can hit the ball better".

[Jim Nugent]

The top 60 pick and choose their events each golf calendar year and typically play no more than 20 events total. Heck, Jack rarely played more than 16 tournaments a year. Outside of the majors, he tended only to play events with high cache on courses he enjoyed.

I thought Jack picked tournaments to try and peak for the majors, and to fit his very busy family life. 

[Steve Lang]

    Lest we forget Greg Norman wouldn't come out on tour till March, to ramp up to the Masters...

[Pat Burke]

The west coast was dying on the vine until the tour set up
A bonus plan (west coast swing) to entice players to play more.
For most top players, the season really started at Doral.


Weather, agronomy were the main reasons presented back then.
Of course, more money fixed that.  But in the 90s, Rivera had sketchy
Conditions at best.  Pebble,,Spyglass, and Sloppy Hills were terrible too.


The greens and the weather definitely played a part.
Riviera for sure is unbelievable now compared to when I played.  The fairways and greens are incredible.  Pebble and Torrey have improved a ton as well.


 Ow the fedex and wrap around definitely keep players watching their positions, as before, money fixes a ton of issues

[Mike Bodo]

The top 60 pick and choose their events each golf calendar year and typically play no more than 20 events total. Heck, Jack rarely played more than 16 tournaments a year. Outside of the majors, he tended only to play events with high cache on courses he enjoyed.

I thought Jack picked tournaments to try and peak for the majors, and to fit his very busy family life.

Jack never played a tournament the week before a major and those he did play in leading up to a major were usually on top-tier courses with highly competitive fields.

[Jeff Schley]

The west coast was dying on the vine until the tour set up
A bonus plan (west coast swing) to entice players to play more.
For most top players, the season really started at Doral.


Weather, agronomy were the main reasons presented back then.
Of course, more money fixed that.  But in the 90s, Rivera had sketchy
Conditions at best.  Pebble,,Spyglass, and Sloppy Hills were terrible too.


The greens and the weather definitely played a part.
Riviera for sure is unbelievable now compared to when I played.  The fairways and greens are incredible.  Pebble and Torrey have improved a ton as well.


 Ow the fedex and wrap around definitely keep players watching their positions, as before, money fixes a ton of issues

Yes this is true as the tour got creative for one event was winners only (opening at Kapalua), 2 were huge pro ams (Pebble & Bob Hope) with 5 - 6 rounds.  It really helped as well that Tiger was sponsored by Buick to show up at Torrey Pines every year as well.

[Wade Whitehead]

I've always thought that pros pick courses that fit their games, not courses they think are good architecturally (though I'm sure there are plenty who would conflate the two).

It's a horses for courses kind of thing.

They can play "for the architecture" on days they aren't playing for money.

They hit shots a given distance on a given line, over and over.  Their best golf is really boring (in a good way).


How many of them have, as a home course in the off season, one of Ran's 147 Custodians?  I don't think it's very many.

WW

[Jeff_Brauer]

Of course, playing based on courses that fit your game is basing play on architecture...It is true that many players skip the Open, knowing its more dicey and not really conducive to their games.  Or Trevino at ANGC and several other examples.


I suspect most have a home course based on who pays them to wear the logo (most likely modern housing courses) and perhaps, ones that play most like those on tour, so even their off season rounds somewhat prepare them for the tournaments to come.


I do recall some of the pros I know saying they would prefer to skip the west coast swing, balanced out by the fact that they are passing up money, and hate to start in March hundreds of thousands (or a million these days) behind in the race for the money list ranking.

[Kalen Braley]

If I had to guess, and Pat can certainly chime in to confirm or deny, that Pros pick their tournaments based on the following (prioritized order)


1a - The Money aka Total Purse and payout structure.
1b - Prestigious events, i.e. Majors, Jack and Arnies tournament, Players, Limited field events, etc.
3 - Proximity to home and/or home course advantage.
4 - How well that tournament fits on the schedule.
5 - Horses for courses as WW explained that aren't otherwise near home base.
6 - Overall location  - off-course attractions, friends/family in the area, nightlife, etc.
7 - The course architecture
8 - Prevailing weather conditions...

[Pat Burke]

Important events majors, wgc, players, probably determine the first step of many top players schedules
There are some with contractual obligation events


The invitationals (Palmer, Memorial, colonial, soon to be Tiger at Riviera) probably have less gravitas, but still probably get looked at.


By then, a top player has a lot of his schedule filled, and then looks at courses he likes or plays well to fill a schedule that fits goals.


For me as a lower level exempt guy.  The big events I might have been in and the courses I liked/played well set the majority of my schedule.  I didn’t want to play more than three in a row so those events would help me determine the core schedule and I’d fill around them.  I’d add if qualified for say the opens, or felt I needed to play.
I also had events I played terribly that I’d schedule around.


Then there are guys like Funk.....there schedule was...yup, I’ll play....all of them

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:  Which events did you avoid because they didn’t suit you?