[Sven Nilsen]

Nigel:


This is only a guess. 


The annotations on the 1921 Map were done by Cheney some time prior to the creation of the 1924 Map.


The 1924 Map reflects the implementation of those plans along with updates to the Cypress routing made between (a) the time of Cheney making the annotations and (b) November of 1924.


At that time, the Raynor work at Del Monte might not have been contemplated.  We know the annotations on the Del Monte Map were added at some point after it was printed, which was June of 1925.  Makes sense that it may have been later that year, and it corresponds with the July 1925 article that discusses Raynor's work in the future.


Sven

[Nigel Islam]

Sven,


I completely agree with this line of thought. I feel the annotations have to be anytime in 1924 or early 1925 at the latest for that very reason. Especially since the "New" Del Monte was still being contemplated in 1927.


So if true this places the date for Cypress conception earlier than perhaps we had thought?

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,


I completely agree with this line of thought. I feel the annotations have to be anytime in 1924 or early 1925 at the latest for that very reason. Especially since the "New" Del Monte was still being contemplated in 1927.


So if true this places the date for Cypress conception earlier than perhaps we had thought?

With regard to the date of the conception of Cypress I don't think it changes the story that much.  We know the organization of the club was being reported on in the Spring of 1925, so it makes sense that it would have been in the works for a bit longer, with Raynor probably having done a preliminary routing on his 1923 or 1924 visit, perhaps at the same time that he did his first routing for MPCC. 


One of the great what-ifs of all time, imagine if Raynor hadn't passed away and MPCC Dunes, MPCC Shores, Cypress Point and two new courses at Del Monte had been built according to his plans and by his construction team. 


Somewhere, Tom Doak just threw up in his soup.


Sven


PS  - Do you have anything on him visiting the San Francisco area in 1917?

[Bret Lawrence]

So with regards to Bret's second Del Monte course, what I'm unclear of is whether the Jack's family owned this land as well or just the land the Old Del Monte courses was on?


And why aren't either of these "New" Del Monte courses seen on the initial maps posted?

Nigel,


The Map of Del Monte links I posted above is from the Miss Lee Jacks file.  I am under the impression that this land was owned by Miss Lee Jacks and her sister Vida.  If you look below the photograph to the right on the link I posted, you can see which folder this map comes from. In the same folder there is another golf layout, but it's dated 1927 and it different than the one I linked to.


Bret

[Nigel Islam]

Sven,


I completely agree with this line of thought. I feel the annotations have to be anytime in 1924 or early 1925 at the latest for that very reason. Especially since the "New" Del Monte was still being contemplated in 1927.


So if true this places the date for Cypress conception earlier than perhaps we had thought?

With regard to the date of the conception of Cypress I don't think it changes the story that much.  We know the organization of the club was being reported on in the Spring of 1925, so it makes sense that it would have been in the works for a bit longer, with Raynor probably having done a preliminary routing on his 1923 or 1924 visit, perhaps at the same time that he did his first routing for MPCC. 


One of the great what-ifs of all time, imagine if Raynor hadn't passed away and MPCC Dunes, MPCC Shores, Cypress Point and two new courses at Del Monte had been built according to his plans and by his construction team. 


Somewhere, Tom Doak just threw up in his soup.


Sven


PS  - Do you have anything on him visiting the San Francisco area in 1917?

Not anything in 1917.
He was there in March 1918, went back to New York for a wedding, and was at Lake Louise in 1918. His wife is then reported going to LA in 6/1918. Not sure if he went from Canada to LA or back to NY then LA.

[Bret Lawrence]

I recently came across this Map of Monterey dated 1921.  This map has a few annotations on it, but it looks very much like the 1921 map posted above. This is likely the map used by Cheney to overlay with roads and golf courses. You will notice only Pebble Beach and Del Monte Golf Links are included on the original.


Courtesy of the United States Department of the Interior, National Park Service, Frederick Law Olmsted National Historic Site.
Here is the map in more detail:

https://flic.kr/p/PF6sCx


Bret

[Bret Lawrence]

Coincidentally,  when I looked for maps to coincide with the maps Sven posted, I came across this map in the Olmsted Archives:  The only reason I clicked on it was because it looked like another Douglas Howard map, I couldn't see the layouts until I enlarged the picture. I wonder if this was Raynor's plan for Del Monte?


https://flic.kr/p/ZR57kZ


Bret

Just to follow up:
This letter from the Olmsted Archives confirms the link above is in fact Seth Raynor's 36-hole routing for Del Monte Golf Links.





Olmsted Associates. Olmsted Associates Records: Job Files, -1971; Files: 8020; Jacks, Lee, Margaret, and Vida; Monterey, Calif.; 1925 to 1926.  Manuscript/Mixed Material. Library of Congress.

[Nigel Islam]

I want to bump this thread as I believe our own Sven is going to be doing a podcast for the Society of Golf Historians podcast regarding these maps. Looking forward to it!

[John Kavanaugh]

I want to bump this thread as I believe our own Sven is going to be doing a podcast for the Society of Golf Historians podcast regarding these maps. Looking forward to it!

Stay safe my front line working friend!!!

[Sven Nilsen]

Thank you John.  I have been proud of your input on the Corona thread.


Hopefully Bret Lawrence will be joining me on the podcast.

[Nigel Islam]

I want to bump this thread as I believe our own Sven is going to be doing a podcast for the Society of Golf Historians podcast regarding these maps. Looking forward to it!

Stay safe my front line working friend!!!

Thanks JK. Its been a little slow in house thus far. No fever yet! Akin to a 12 week long Tornado Warning where you are just waiting for it to pass. Hope all is well with you.

[Nigel Islam]

Thank you John.  I have been proud of your input on the Corona thread.


Hopefully Bret Lawrence will be joining me on the podcast.

Sven, I hope so too. Anthony and I were really trying to convince him. It should be excellent with both of you on there. I just re read this whole thread, and apart from me making some silly statements this was as good a three page discussion as I have seen here.


Not to steal your podcast thunder, but do you still feel as if the map was made in 1921 and CPC, MPCC were annotated at some point after?

[Sven Nilsen]

Nigel:

The 1921 Map was made (or printed) in 1921.  We're pretty sure the annotations were made at a later date most likely by Charles H. Cheney.  I have yet to find a copy of the original 1921 Map without annotations.


The 1924 Map was made (or printed) in 1924.  There's a very good chance there are annotations on this map as well, which most likely coincide with the 9/30/25 date which appears to have been added below the signature and date from the mapmaker.  Finding an original version of this map as well would be very helpful.


Bret and I are working on trying to find as much information as we can on Charles H. Cheney.  We both independently have found letters between folks from the Morse concern, the Olmsted firm and Cheney discussing the initial concept of a planning effort at Monterey.  One of those letters has a version of the 1921 map (a very similar map, but I don't think the exact same map) being transmitted from one party to the other in 1923.


Based on the communications with Cheney, his annotations on the 1921 Map would most likely have been added some time after 1923.


Still digging, hopefully more to follow.


Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

For those that are interested, here is the podcast Bret and I recorded for TalkinGolf History.


https://talkingolf.fireside.fm/37

[John Foley]

With regard to the date of the conception of Cypress I don't think it changes the story that much.  We know the organization of the club was being reported on in the Spring of 1925, so it makes sense that it would have been in the works for a bit longer, with Raynor probably having done a preliminary routing on his 1923 or 1924 visit, perhaps at the same time that he did his first routing for MPCC. 

I think what is speculated here (and for many believed to be what occurred) makes sense. Would love to see something in Raynor's hand to reveal these details.


In the end though, wouldn't Cypress Point (given it's pedigree & historic significance)  know (and possibly have proof of) the answer and may not just want to unwrap this in public?

[Sven Nilsen]

In the end though, wouldn't Cypress Point (given it's pedigree & historic significance)  know (and possibly have proof of) the answer and may not just want to unwrap this in public?

John:


There is a very quiet and long-standing background debate running through the pages of this website.  Namely, who owns history?


I guess each of us have to answer that question for ourselves.


Sven

[Adam G]

I will not claim to be an expert relative to many of the people here. I have also never been to Cypress Point and am not great at reading a topo map yet. So someone please correct me if I made any mistakes.


I was surprised that in the interesting podcast nobody talked about what Mackenzie's routing "fingerprints" are and whether any of the changes between the versions has have his fingerprints on them. I have readthat Mackenzie is known for repeatedly using an interesting landform as a "focal point" of his routings, which repeatedly use and return to the focal point landform. Think the hill near 7 green at Augusta.


I recall reading that the way Mackenzie used a prominent sand dune at Cypress is a prime example of one of his focal points. It is behind 6 and 11 greens (and near 3 green), houses the tee for 7, 10, and 12, and the green for 9. Others have said that this feature of the routing is what screams Mackenzie's name at Cypress. The Golf Digest "Every Hole at Cypress Point" video makes this dune's prominence and usage on each hole very clear.


Given this, it is interesting to notice that the use of the dune is very different in the 1921 relative to the 1924 maps. In particular, the 1924 map looks much more like a Mackenzie routing. The dune is not as clear in the topo lines on the 1921 map, but it looks like the 10th hole (a par 3 or short par 4?) is played over the dune and the 11th tee is playing off of it. That dune is not used repeatedly as a focal point of the routing. But in the 1924 routing, you can see the short par 4 9th played into a green set on the dune, the 10th played off the dune, the 11th played to a green set into the dune, and the 12th played back off of it. The 3rd green is also moved towards the base of it relative to the 1921 map. The main difference between the 1924 map and Cypress as built is that the course uses that dune even more than the 1924 map, as the dune backs the 6th green and is used for the teeing ground for the par 3 7th which plays to the east. It thus seems to me that the use of that dune in the 1924 maps has the hallmarks of a Mackenzie routing while the 1921 map does not.


Curious what people think of this observation.

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