[Sven Nilsen]

I posted this in the Routing, Maps and Plans thread, but thought the questions it sparked deserved a thread of its own.

First, here is the map posted, with closeups of the individual courses noted thereon.  The source for the map can be found here:

https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/29708/map-of-the-monterey-peninsula-and-vicinity-monterey-califor-howard-cheney

Note the 1921 date ascribed to the map, which is clearly a bit too early.



Del Monte GC -



Pebble Beach GC -



Monterey Peninsula CC -



Cypress Point Club -

[Sven Nilsen]

Looking at the Cypress Point closeup, it is evident that the routing noted on the map is not the routing that was built by MacKenzie and Hunter.

This closeup is taken from a map given a 1938 date (I'm a bit skeptical on this date as well, and note the discrepancy with the 6th and 7th holes):



A modern portrayal of the routing -

[Sven Nilsen]

It would be easy to dismiss the "1921 Map" as a bit of a mistake, but the same routing was repeated in another rendering of the Monterey area.  This map was given a date of 1928.

[Sven Nilsen]

My first thought on the 1921 and 1928 Maps was that they displayed a bit of artistic license, and the inaccuracies in the Cypress routing were kind of a best guess.  But the specificity of the routings of the remainder of the Cypress course and on the other courses noted makes me think the maps were reflective of what was on the ground, or what was planned.  My guess is that both of these maps were prepared in connection with the onset of the residential development of the Monterey Peninsula.

One of the questions that arose on the other thread was if we could identify the actual date of the "1921 Map."  It was suggested that the location of the 18th green at Pebble might be a clue, but the green was moved by Fowler around 1922 and we know the map is from a later date.


There are probably other clues to be found.  I'm going to post the closeups from each course from the various maps side by side, which might assist in placing each map on the timeline.

[Sven Nilsen]

Del Monte -

"1921 Map"



"1928 Map"

[Sven Nilsen]

Pebble Beach -

"1921 Map"



"1928 Map"



"1938 Map"

[Sven Nilsen]

Monterey Peninsula CC -

"1921 Map"



"1928 Map"



"1938 Map"

[Sven Nilsen]

One more map that might be of assistance.  I don't have a date for this one, but the routings of Cypress and Monterey Peninsula Shore course reflect what was actually built.


This one is particularly interesting as it notes the various plots of land around each course, and notes the names of the owners including two plots with the name of Hunter off of Pebble Beach.

[Nigel Islam]

First off these are beyond cool, and once again a great find for Sven. It looks like from hypothesis of the 18 green at Pebble being east of the longitude line of the first tee was "disproven" by the 1928 map.


The Baldock routing for MPCC Shore  was obviously derived from the Raynor?, MacKenzie, Hunter routing. At least seven corridors of this routing were cleared and abandoned in the depression years. Baldock had a tight parcel of land, and really had little choice in adopting this routing (unless he went the Strantz route)


Dunes seems pretty much what was built to me.


Regarding the Cypress routing, how does this compare to the routing on Shackelford's book? I've seen it, but don't own it. 

[Nigel Islam]

One other observation. The initial map could be from 1921 (as the seller claims,) but the writing was done at later dates. Small point, but one in which discrepancies can be explained.

[Sven Nilsen]

Nigel:

Is the routing you were talking about?  If so, note the 6th and 7th holes.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

One other observation. The initial map could be from 1921 (as the seller claims,) but the writing was done at later dates. Small point, but one in which discrepancies can be explained.

Nigel:


Are you suggesting the routings on the "1921 Map" were added later?  I don't think that is the case.  The red writing appears to have been, but the stick figure routings all appear to be original to the map.


Sven

[Nigel Islam]

Never mind, yes you are right. I was just looking at the writing.


One other point is the suspension bridge at 18 of Cypress does not appear to be on the 1921 map. That seemed to be an early concept right? I seem to remember a Golf Illustrated photo with a stake in the rock from maybe 1925?

[Kalen Braley]

Sven,

Very cool stuff.  Been a few years since I read Geoff's book, i'll have to take another look.

P.S. I thought there was a 3rd potential routing where 14 crossed over 17 mile drive and played along the cove...

[Nigel Islam]

Nigel:

Is the routing you were talking about?  If so, note the 6th and 7th holes.

Sven

Yes that's the one. This is closer to the "1938" routing, but it's not even the same as that. You got me. I'm out of ideas!

[Sven Nilsen]

Yes that's the one. This is closer to the "1938" routing, but it's not even the same as that. You got me. I'm out of ideas!

To me it looks spot on for the "1938" routing.  And to be clear, I think the date given that particular map is way off.


Sven

[MCirba]

Sven,
This is a very cool thread.   I don't know enough to be dangerous but will be watching with great interest, thanks!

[Sven Nilsen]

If (and this is a big if) each of the maps above reflects plans that were in the works (or at least being considered), it appears there are three different versions of the Cypress Point routing reflected.


1.  The first, from the 1921 and 1928 maps, starts to differ from the current routing around the 5th hole continuing through the 12th.


2.  The second, which is seen in the 1938 map and also on the Mackenzie routing from Shack's book, is pretty much the same as what was built, with the 6th being a par 3 and the 7th a par 4 instead of the opposite.


3.  The third is the as built course.


It is also of interest to note that the routing of the lower holes on the Shore Course at MPCC changed a bit as well.

[Bret Lawrence]

Sven,


Thanks for posting these. Very interesting.


Do you have a general date you think this map is from?


If the Shore routing is on here and the Cypress routing is on here could it have been any earlier than 1924-1925?


Considering it doesn't have the 'as built' Cypress course on here, can it be any later than 1928-1929?


One thing I notice is that the Club Houses are also included in this map and even the Bathing Pavillion at Monterey Peninsula Country Club.  I don't know the dates of those buildings, but maybe this would narrow it down.


Bret

[Jonathan Mallard]

Sven,


Are you able to research old courthouse deed records for land transfers in that period of what looks to be the 1st hole and others? There should be some survey plats that would shed some light on what may have transpired.

[Tom_Doak]

My first thought on the 1921 and 1928 Maps was that they displayed a bit of artistic license, and the inaccuracies in the Cypress routing were kind of a best guess.  But the specificity of the routings of the remainder of the Cypress course and on the other courses noted makes me think the maps were reflective of what was on the ground, or what was planned.  My guess is that both of these maps were prepared in connection with the onset of the residential development of the Monterey Peninsula.

One of the questions that arose on the other thread was if we could identify the actual date of the "1921 Map."  It was suggested that the location of the 18th green at Pebble might be a clue, but the green was moved by Fowler around 1922 and we know the map is from a later date.


There are probably other clues to be found.  I'm going to post the closeups from each course from the various maps side by side, which might assist in placing each map on the timeline.

How do you know for sure that the map is from later than 1921? 


The routing of Pebble Beach [with the 18th as a par 4] is accurate to 1921.


Isn't it possible someone had already done a rough routing for Cypress Point at that time?  If the land was earmarked for future golf, instead of future development, they would have tried to figure out what land to set aside.  There were a few golf architects [or guys who wanted to be one] around the place by then, and of course land planning firms sometimes do golf routings on their own, though I think it's unlikely a land planner would have laid out 15-16-17 at Cypress Point without clear marching orders from the client.


Note that the Cypress Point routings on the 1921 and 1928 maps are not identical - they are quite different on the inland holes.  The "1921" map is closer to the actual routing or its predecessor; the 1928 map shows the 5th as a par 3 into the middle of the course, the 6th playing from there to 5 green, the 9th where today's 8th is, and then only one hole coming back inland from there before it turns around and heads toward the ocean [presumably today's 9th and not today's 10th].  In other words, the 1928 map is far enough off to not give it too much credibility.


I'm also curious what the white paths are on the 1928 map that run through both Cypress and Pebble.  Bridle paths?  They clearly aren't roads.

[Nigel Islam]

My first thought on the 1921 and 1928 Maps was that they displayed a bit of artistic license, and the inaccuracies in the Cypress routing were kind of a best guess.  But the specificity of the routings of the remainder of the Cypress course and on the other courses noted makes me think the maps were reflective of what was on the ground, or what was planned.  My guess is that both of these maps were prepared in connection with the onset of the residential development of the Monterey Peninsula.

One of the questions that arose on the other thread was if we could identify the actual date of the "1921 Map."  It was suggested that the location of the 18th green at Pebble might be a clue, but the green was moved by Fowler around 1922 and we know the map is from a later date.


There are probably other clues to be found.  I'm going to post the closeups from each course from the various maps side by side, which might assist in placing each map on the timeline.

How do you know for sure that the map is from later than 1921? 


The routing of Pebble Beach [with the 18th as a par 4] is accurate to 1921.


Isn't it possible someone had already done a rough routing for Cypress Point at that time?  If the land was earmarked for future golf, instead of future development, they would have tried to figure out what land to set aside.  There were a few golf architects [or guys who wanted to be one] around the place by then, and of course land planning firms sometimes do golf routings on their own, though I think it's unlikely a land planner would have laid out 15-16-17 at Cypress Point without clear marching orders from the client.


Note that the Cypress Point routings on the 1921 and 1928 maps are not identical - they are quite different on the inland holes.  The "1921" map is closer to the actual routing or its predecessor; the 1928 map shows the 5th as a par 3 into the middle of the course, the 6th playing from there to 5 green, the 9th where today's 8th is, and then only one hole coming back inland from there before it turns around and heads toward the ocean [presumably today's 9th and not today's 10th].  In other words, the 1928 map is far enough off to not give it too much credibility.


I'm also curious what the white paths are on the 1928 map that run through both Cypress and Pebble.  Bridle paths?  They clearly aren't roads.

Tom,


I was trying to make that point about 18 being the pre extension version at Pebble earlier in the thread.


As far as Cypress, wasn’t it Hollins that emplored Morse to build Cypress? I’m not sure she had started spending time in Monterey by 1921. I’ve tried to explain Raynor being in California in July of 1923, and I can’t find any evidence of Monterey Peninsula Country Club being suggested before 1924. That isn’t of course conclusive though.


Land transfers might not be very helpful since Del Monte Properties Company owned all of this land except where the Del Monte course was.

[Sven Nilsen]

How do you know for sure that the map is from later than 1921? 

I don't, but I also haven't seen anything to suggest that Cypress or MPCC were even an idea in 1921.  What really convinces me is the routing of the Dunes course of MPCC, which looks to be exactly what was designed and built by Raynor.  By all accounts, that routing wasn't formulated until late 1924.

The routing of Pebble Beach [with the 18th as a par 4] is accurate to 1921.

I don't have an answer for this, other than perhaps an older map of Pebble was used when these images were produced.  Which leads to the thought that maybe whoever drew the 1928 map used the 1921 map as its model.

Isn't it possible someone had already done a rough routing for Cypress Point at that time? 

By all accounts the idea for Cypress didn't come about until some time after Hollins relocated to the area in 1922 to work for Morse.  1921 seems early.

If the land was earmarked for future golf, instead of future development, they would have tried to figure out what land to set aside.  There were a few golf architects [or guys who wanted to be one] around the place by then, and of course land planning firms sometimes do golf routings on their own, though I think it's unlikely a land planner would have laid out 15-16-17 at Cypress Point without clear marching orders from the client.

If this is the case, then a land planner came up with the exact routing for the MPCC Dunes course.  Do you think that is likely?

Note that the Cypress Point routings on the 1921 and 1928 maps are not identical - they are quite different on the inland holes.  The "1921" map is closer to the actual routing or its predecessor; the 1928 map shows the 5th as a par 3 into the middle of the course, the 6th playing from there to 5 green, the 9th where today's 8th is, and then only one hole coming back inland from there before it turns around and heads toward the ocean [presumably today's 9th and not today's 10th].  In other words, the 1928 map is far enough off to not give it too much credibility.

Not sure I agree with you on the differences between the 1921 and 1928 maps.  The 1928 map is a bit foreshortened, drawn to look like an aerial shot.  In any case, whether it depicts the 5th as a par 3 or a par 4, the corridors of the holes are the same on both, and differ significantly from what was built for the holes on the eastern end of the course.

I'm also curious what the white paths are on the 1928 map that run through both Cypress and Pebble.  Bridle paths?  They clearly aren't roads.

Clearly they are cart paths.

[Sven Nilsen]

The "1921 Map" contains a number of annotations in color, as pointed out earlier by Nigel.  If you click on the link in the first post, you'll see that those annotations were added by Charles H. Cheney.  Cheney was a renown city planner.

The key for those annotations (written under the map heading) reads as follows:

-Concrete or Bitumonized Streets & Roads (in Orange)
-Macadanized or Dirt Streets & Roads (in Yellow)
-Golf links  [These are the green notes]
-Boundaries of Del Monte Hotel Grounds & Polo Fields.  [These are the purple notes]

Nigel may have been on to something when he suggested the golf routings were added at a later date on a pre-existing map.  In that case, the map itself could be from 1921, and the annotations from a few years later.  Upon further examination, it is hard for me to tell if the routings themselves are original to the printed map or if they are part of the annotations.

Would be helpful to know when exactly Cheney was working on this project.

[Bret Lawrence]

Sven,


It's interesting that Pebble Beach is not labelled in Cheneys handwriting.  Cypress, Shore, Dunes and Del Monte are written on there by Cheney, but Pebble is not.  There are also no yellow lines indicating Pebble Beach as a "golf links" with respect to Cheneys key.


Bret

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