Never a Ross; always a Park (Country Club of New Bedford [MA])

[Niall C]

Jonathon

As a matter of interest, after Park was finished at New Bedford, how many par 3's did it have ? Park was known to advocate only having 3 par 3's. I was a member at a links course that Park jointly redesigned and it still has 3 par 3's.

Niall

[Tim Martin]

I'll echo what Bret Lawrence said about Shuttle Meadow CC in that it's a fine example of Park's work. The super Andrew Hannah has done a wonderful job in having the course play as Park intended and would be a great resource. I wouldn't hesitate to reach out to him as he couldn't be a nicer guy or more accommodating. Despite a number of Golden Age designs it has always been my favorite in Hartford County, Connecticut.

[MCirba]

Joseph Bausch...any photo tour of Willie Park's Sylvania?   Some really good stuff out there.

[Joe Bausch]

Joseph Bausch...any photo tour of Willie Park's Sylvania?   Some really good stuff out there.

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Sylvania/index.html

[Jonathan Sirois]

Jonathan,


Here is a picture from 1953: The picture is titled C.C. New Bedford. This is from the O.J Noer/Milorganite Photo Collection.  The photograph is obviously highlighting the custom made sprayer, but you can catch a glimpse of a few features in the background.


https://tic.msu.edu/noerslides?Num=4001


Bret

Bret,


Thanks for the great photo. You can see the early stages of a "course beautification process," with a new row of trees at the apex of the 14th, 15th, and 16th holes. Great stuff.

[Richard_Mandell]

The short grass that bleeds into much of Maidstone's bunkering is one example of something I'd love to see more of at CCNB (and countless other courses).

Jonathan,


This is where restoration gets tricky and gets a bad name in many cases.  Willie Park writes specifically about clearly defined hazard edges in his work:  "The hazard should be sharply defined, so that there can be no doubt as to whether or not a ball lies in it." Even though he refers to hazards in this quote, he definitely includes sand bunkers as he claims, "Sand bunkers are undoubtedly the most legitimate hazards".


So if you want to see bleeding of bunker edges, it would not really jibe with a "restoration" of Willie Park.  I do like the look, but if a goal is true authenticity, then maybe that look isn't what the Club should go for.

[Joe Bausch]

Hi all,


Thanks for your thoughts so far. As far as Mike can tell, CCNB was one of the last courses Park worked on before taking ill and returning to Scotland.


His research indicates that Park was hired in 1922 to redesign the existing holes and lead the expansion of the course across Slocum Street. The minutes even indicate “... that the work should be pushed along as quickly as possible.” However, Park became ill sometime around 1922-1923 and stopped working actively in 1923 before passing away in 1925. The waters are muddied by the fact that many records and board minutes are missing due to a clubhouse fire in October of 1922!

Here is the oldest photo I can provide for the time being. The leftmost triangle of land (bordered by Route 6 on the left) features 12 holes (including the original nine) and the area across the street to the right features six.


Photo credit: http://ccnbturfcare.blogspot.com/2015/11/1938-aerial-photo.html

That aerial is very cool.  Any chance you have an oblique aerial from a similar timeframe?

[Jonathan Sirois]

So if you want to see bleeding of bunker edges, it would not really jibe with a "restoration" of Willie Park.  I do like the look, but if a goal is true authenticity, then maybe that look isn't what the Club should go for.



Richard, I appreciate the context; the quotes your provided are what we're after. It's also fun to ponder how Park's philosophy might have changed over the course of a 30+ year career.


I look forward to doing more homework for what is thoroughly a thought experiment at this point---one that I hope materializes over time.

[Jonathan Sirois]

Jonathon

As a matter of interest, after Park was finished at New Bedford, how many par 3's did it have ? Park was known to advocate only having 3 par 3's. I was a member at a links course that Park jointly redesigned and it still has 3 par 3's.

Niall

Niall,


Interestingly enough, CCNB has exactly three par 3s: #7 (on the "new" plot of land acquired in 1922), #15, and #17. It also has one par 5 (#4).


Par 3s:
#7 (184 yds.) features an utterly wild green sloping from back right to front left. Members call it "the shortest par 5 on the course."

#15 (133 yds) is a volcano-style short well defended by bunkers, severely sloping sides, and a front-to-back green.

#17 (199 yds.) is a demanding one-shotter with water surrounding the front, left, and back of the green. Back in the 50s, Byron Nelson famously said something to the effect of, "I don't have a club in my bag for this hole."

[Willie_Dow]

Actually, I have a detail drawing by the firm in Boston of CCNB named "Olmstead", I sent it to Wayne Morrison, and I can't find my copy.

[Bret Lawrence]

Actually, I have a detail drawing by the firm in Boston of CCNB named "Olmstead", I sent it to Wayne Morrison, and I can't find my copy.

Willie,


Great recommendation.  Flickr has tons and tons of Olmsted maps.  Apparently the Olmsteds worked on CC of New Bedford in 1902.  I would check with the archives because not everything they have is accessible online.


https://flic.kr/p/25PNUXp


Bret

[Willie_Dow]

Wayne actually sent me the General Plan for the grounds of NEW BEDFORD COUNTRY CLUB - by Olmstead Brothers, Landscape Architects, Brookline, Mass - December 1902.


Interestingly enough, Wayne also sent me a match between NBCC and my summer place at Salters Point, a six holer, which took place in 1906.  He is some historian !!!!

[archie_struthers]

 




Great detective work guys ....Willie was definitely in the Northeast from 1922 -23 as he was hanging around Somers Point NJ at my home club Greate Bay     Joe Bausch has the dirt

[Jonathan Sirois]

Wayne actually sent me the General Plan for the grounds of NEW BEDFORD COUNTRY CLUB - by Olmstead Brothers, Landscape Architects, Brookline, Mass - December 1902.


Interestingly enough, Wayne also sent me a match between NBCC and my summer place at Salters Point, a six holer, which took place in 1906.  He is some historian !!!!

Willie,


Having connected with Wayne in the past regarding his research on Flynn and Kittansett, I can attest to his prowess as an historian!


In other news, I have a question regarding a comment you made a while back regarding CCNB---something along the lines of seeing definitive traits of Park and not Ross, especially on the front side. Can you speak more to what stood out to you?


Thanks, Willie, and let me know if you want to establish a 21st century CCNB vs. Salter's Point match!


Thanks,
Jon

[Willie_Dow]

Actually archie, this version of "willie" wasn't around till 1929.  But the NBCC version of Olmsted's "General Plan" had a surround's of Rt 6, Hathaway Rd., and Slocum Rd., which I believe Willie Park used for his basic design.  Ross came in to go across Slocum Road, to make it an eighteen holer.


Not sure of the Ross date, however.

[Joe Bausch]

The solution to this problem has been found.

I’ll let Jonathan report on it.  Yes, I helped grease the squeaky wheel.

[Jonathan Sirois]

Hi all,


Thanks for your thoughts so far. As far as Mike can tell, CCNB was one of the last courses Park worked on before taking ill and returning to Scotland.


His research indicates that Park was hired in 1922 to redesign the existing holes and lead the expansion of the course across Slocum Street. The minutes even indicate “... that the work should be pushed along as quickly as possible.” However, Park became ill sometime around 1922-1923 and stopped working actively in 1923 before passing away in 1925. The waters are muddied by the fact that many records and board minutes are missing due to a clubhouse fire in October of 1922!

Here is the oldest photo I can provide for the time being. The leftmost triangle of land (bordered by Route 6 on the left) features 12 holes (including the original nine) and the area across the street to the right features six.


Photo credit: http://ccnbturfcare.blogspot.com/2015/11/1938-aerial-photo.html

That aerial is very cool.  Any chance you have an oblique aerial from a similar timeframe?

Joe,


After you inquired about which newspapers had been consulted, Mike searched for others that had been in print in New Bedford in 1922. He stumbled upon the Evening Standard, in which he found confirmation of Park's appointment, as well as a tentative layout---the same one in existence today! The newspaper ran the article a mere day after the CCNB minutes confirm his being hired, on March 28th, 1922. This is the most concrete piece of proof Mike (on behalf of CCNB) has that we owe our great design to Willie Park Jr. It's a good day. Thanks for posing the question, Joe. It surely set things in motion.


Here is the routing. Those who have played the course will recognize it immediately.


As Mike said, "Eureka!"


The article also mentions that he was in Chicago at the time, if that's helpful to anyone trying to tie Park to a place in the spring of 1922.


Jon

[Joe Bausch]

I’ve been at this game for a long time.  I know where the bodies are buried.

I’m very happy for the CCNB. 

I can’t wait to see the course. 

[Pete Lavallee]

A very interesting discussion for me as native of New Bedford. As a member of the working class I learned to play golf at the municipal Whaling City GC, which was a Ross but lost 9 holes to the Route 140 freeway. I was fortunate enough to play at CCNB twice and it was fairly obvious to even a novice that there were the original 9 holes and 9 holes that were added. The common assumption at the time was that William Park built the original 9 holes and Ross added the next 9. The 3 holes added alongside Hathaway Road play through a somewhat swampy area of the very hilly site; the volcano green at the bottom of the hill was surely an attempt to keep play above water! The 6 holes across Slocum Road seem a little different too, perhaps inferior topography, or just a different construction foreman? In the end there is no shame in hitching your wagon to William Park Jr. (he didn’t like being called Willie), we have the same issue here in San Diego where he desisigned SDCC and most likely Balboa Park but the name brand of Billy Bell sells better with the general public.

[MLevesque]

Madison (CT) Country Club is a Willie Park Jr. design that was renovated/re-worked 4 years ago by Brian Silva.   Three new holes were built (5,8 & 17), 2 greensites shifted and all of the remaining greens were enlarged.  I'm not sure how much of the original WPJ design features remain in the renovation but it's been universally well received by its members and a really fun track to play.

[Bret Lawrence]

Nice work Joe, Jonathan and Mike!


Pete,


I think you are confusing William Watson with Willie Park. Willie Park advertised as "Willie".  I have never heard of Willie Park in California, but as much as he travelled it is certainly possible.


Whaling City may be another misidentified Ross.  If anyone has the 1938 aerial for this area of town, you can see by 1938 there was still no golf course on the property.  It's hard to justify that it was a 1920 Ross design. 


Bret