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Gib_Papazian

Reincarnation Theory
« on: February 10, 2019, 01:37:26 AM »
I had an epiphany last night - one that makes more sense the more I think about it. Has anyone ever considered the possibility that Donald Trump is the reincarnation of Charles Blair Macdonald?

Their personalities are so similar, it seems the qualities necessary to ramrod golf into America are the same needed to get elected to the presidency. The only difference between the two is Trumpet has Twitter . . . . . .

Tim Leahy

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Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2019, 03:40:56 AM »
Did CBM sell out to the Russians too?
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

JMEvensky

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Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2019, 06:15:35 AM »
Nice to see you contributing again GP. Please post more often.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2019, 08:33:21 AM »
I hope Ran deletes this thread. It can only deteriorate.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

SL_Solow

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Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2019, 09:43:46 AM »
Agree.  Love hearing from Gib but this can only go in a bad direction for this forum.  Coming from one whose office did business with Mr. Trump

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2019, 10:33:51 AM »
Yeah, tough to envision CBM as a traitor to his country for personal profit.

Sorry but that's our sad current national reality.

Hope all is well, Gib...good to hear from you.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Peter Pallotta

Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2019, 11:48:22 AM »
Well, they do have the 'America first' theme in common: you can easily replace Make America Great Again (MAGA) with Make American Golf Anew -- though CBM wouldn't have wanted to wear the trucker's style cap, so maybe a MAGA tie clip or a slogan-button pinned to the brim of his fedora. Oh, and of course they both have their amateur-unpaid status, a none too subtle poke at the professional class of politicians & architects respectively.

   
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 12:00:35 PM by Peter Pallotta »

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2019, 12:05:46 PM »
Well, they do have the 'America first' theme in common: you can easily replace Make America Great Again (MAGA) with Make American Golf Anew -- though CBM wouldn't have wanted to wear the trucker's style cap, so maybe a MAGA tie clip or a slogan-button pinned to the brim of his fedora.
   

Peter,

Actually, it was CBM's allegiance to his romantic notions of golf in Scotland and solidarity with the dictates of the Royal & Ancient that were responsible for holding the game together when various elements in the United States wanted a clean break over matters like the Schenectady putter.

On the other hand, Walter Travis was more the "America First" guy, which was somewhat ironic as he was a native Australian who became an American citizen.

Both men would have thought the MAGA hats were silly and unnecessarily provocative, I believe.

To try to move this discussion more towards golf and architecture, let me shamelessly post links to what I think is a pretty good re-telling of that story.   

http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/cirba-mike-walter-j-travis-dropped-at-national-golf-links-of-america-truth-or-travesty-part-one/

http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/cirba-mike-walter-j-travis-dropped-at-national-golf-links-of-america-truth-or-travesty-part-two/

http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/cirba-mike-walter-j-travis-dropped-at-national-golf-links-of-america-truth-or-travesty-part-three/
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Greg Hohman

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Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2019, 12:44:51 PM »
newmonumentsgc.com

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2019, 01:46:29 PM »
I don't think CBM would have ever behaved like this Trumpian golf story:


https://medium.com/s/powertrip/trum...cL6gU814NrpboCR8ZMOx_NMoZKXEtUgfKH_ioNcORBKyM


[/size]By the way, click on the link about Adam Levin in the article. [/color]




"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Gib_Papazian

Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2019, 04:59:24 PM »
Guys, please. Let's not forget who started this thread. If everything I know about C.B. went into that book, you'd have a little different perception of the "Father of American Golf Architecture."


He was often rude, bombastic, prejudiced, combative, obtuse, vengeful - and picked fights constantly. He once punched the President of Shinnecock Hills, right there in the bar Stanford White designed.


While not a full rip misogynist, NGLA had a cathouse - right there across the inlet - for all the zillionaires who sailed their yachts into the old docks below what is now the practice range.


He rubbed elbows with guys like Findlay Douglas and Judge O'Brien, neither of whom were sweetie-pies. Putting aside his diatribes on the purity of the game, C.B. was not above gamesmanship - and was the sorest loser in America.


But boy-oh-boy, he could work a room - and was persuasive enough to convince people with 100x his wealth to buy into his vision. There was plenty of skulduggery along the way, but in the end, the quality of courses C.B. Macdonald left behind more than stand the test of time.


I'm going to assert the two of them would likely have been close friends . . . . . . the similarities are undeniable.     
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 11:53:30 AM by Gib Papazian »

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2019, 05:20:12 PM »
Hmm, does the Donald also insist his properties be routed clockwise to keep his slice in the ballpark?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Gib_Papazian

Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2019, 01:18:03 AM »
Pete,


Yes! And it would be the finest - and most expensive dogleg-right golf course ever built.

Rich Goodale

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2019, 10:22:20 AM »
Yeah, tough to envision CBM as a traitor to his country for personal profit.


Chuckie was a Canadian.  Do any of our Canadian members think he was a traitor?
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Dave McCollum

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2019, 11:53:36 PM »

Gib--

Nice to light up your return by lobbing a Molotov cocktail into the anthill.  Keep up the good work.   

Mike Hendren

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2019, 01:33:09 PM »
Gyro, so good to hear from you though it appears you’ve lost a step.  No big whoop as “I ain’t as good as I once was” either.  I fear you have mistaken a nightmare for an epiphany.  Only one of the two men you dreamt of is a vapid dolt. Any other resemblance is surely coincidental. By chance have you been talking to Mucci?


A fan,
Bogey




Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Philip Hensley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2019, 02:04:53 PM »
Is CBM one of the golfers that threatened to withdraw from the 1896 US Open because they let Elizabeth Warren's grandfather play?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 02:34:01 PM by Philip 'BDE' Hensley »

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2019, 02:19:34 PM »
Yeah, tough to envision CBM as a traitor to his country for personal profit.

Chuckie was a Canadian.  Do any of our Canadian members think he was a traitor?
Perhaps those hoping for his Ideal Links to be built in Nova Scotia in say, 1910.  ;)


"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Gib_Papazian

Re: Reincarnation Theory New
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2019, 03:25:53 PM »
In fact, I *have* been talking to Mucci, actually three of them - including Matt and Pat's esteemed brother.


The point of starting the thread was not to incite some kind of discursive political argument. Between Cirba, Kennedy, Dan King and the conga-line of argumentative ping pong players, there are already bountiful offerings of half-baked shrieking about those de facto monarchists inside the beltway. That would include me, by the way - except I've got a tick of Barny-itis, especially when it comes to inflicting intentional discomfort on the congenitally dogmatic.


No, I don't actually believe all of my bullshit.


The entire thesis was recognizing that nearly every single successful person - whether you like them or not - is a tapestry of conflicting personality traits, some of which are clearly abnormal psych disorders.


You think Clifford Roberts was a box of chocolates? How about Sainted Bobby Jones? Even taking historical perspective - and the tenor of the times - the engine that drove much of golf's development in America was fueled with horrible, heartless, prejudicial intentions, no? Anybody ever hear of John Shippen and Curtis Bunn? Go read who was leading the charge to bar them from teeing off . . . . . 


The Rockefeller family developed Mauna Kea - an astonishing achievement - but you think everything Laurance Rockefeller did was on the level? OMG, half those railroad and lumber barons - who financed the seed money for the top tier clubs - were a bunch of financial sociopaths. The membership at the Links Club were such snobs they let the club die, rather than allow the ill-bred hoi polloi into their enclave.


What do you think happened to anybody who got on the wrong side of C.B., Findlay or Judge O'Brien? All of the guys who spend all day posting anti-this politician or that public figure on Facebook, gleefully tee it up - for instance - at Cypress Point, enjoying their afternoon at a place that would not let them shine shoes in the locker room, let alone join the membership roles. That is still true - dare I say - at clubs like Merion.


I am just wondering - on a personal level, how many in the Treehouse would choose a guy like C.B. Macdonald as a friend - with all of his foibles, prejudices, bombast and foul-tempered proclamations - if he was not the founder and driving force of NGLA? His finger-wagging ostentatiousness reminds me of another golf developer in the modern era. ;-)






 


 


 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 01:32:36 AM by Gib Papazian »

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2019, 03:39:04 PM »
What do you think happened to anybody who got on the wrong side of C.B., Findlay or Judge O'Brien? All of the guys who spend all day posting anti-this politician or that public figure on Facebook, gleefully tee it up at - for instance - Cypress Point, enjoying their afternoon at a place that would not let them shine shoes in the locker room, let alone join the membership roles. That is still true - dare I say - at clubs like Merion.
Gibber,
Another shameless plug but we know from my IMO pieces what happened to Walter Travis when he got on the wrong side of CBM!  He was essentially expunged entirely from the NGLA Creation story.    :-\ :'(
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Dan Kelly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2019, 03:44:16 PM »
f everything I know about C.B. went into that book, you'd have a little different perception of the "Father of American Golf Architecture."


He was often rude, bombastic, prejudiced, combative, obtuse, vengeful - and picked fights constantly. He once punched the President of Shinnecock Hills, right there in the bar Stanford White designed.


While not a full rip misogynist, NGLA had a cathouse - right there across the inlet - for all the zillionaires who sailed their yachts into the old docks below what is now the practice range.


He rubbed elbows with guys like Findlay Douglas and Judge O'Brien, neither of whom were sweetie-pies. Putting aside his diatribes on the purity of the game, C.B. was not above gamesmanship - and was the sorest loser in America.


But boy-oh-boy, he could work a room - and was persuasive enough to convince people with 100x his wealth to buy into his vision. There was plenty of skulduggery along the way, but in the end, the quality of courses C.B. Macdonald left behind more than stand the test of time.


I'm going to assert the two of them would likely have been close friends . . . . . . the similarities are undeniable.     


Gib -- Intending no comment whatsoever on the President of the United States, I humbly suggest:


Get to work on THAT book!


Thanks.


Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2019, 04:35:44 PM »
Gib,

The difference between all of them and Trump is none (that i'm aware of at least) ran for POTUS, much less became it.

I understand the world will always have tyrants and in some ways they are useful, but not in that position...IMHO...

Gib_Papazian

Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2019, 05:37:23 PM »
Dan,


That ship has long ago sailed. First off, the ghosts of Uncle George and C.B. would haunt me if I wrote an actual tell-all, which would be pointless in this era of shamelessness. Unless I had a blackface photo of C.B. in a minstrel show - or wearing a pointy white hat - nobody would care.  TMZ makes the National Enquirer look the Christian Science Monitor, so a book recounting the lurid details of an obscure golf architect's life would end up on the bargain rack as a decorative doorstop.   


I mean c'mon, one president was using Secret Service cover while porking Norma Jeane - and then probably signed off on the CIA killing her. We had another one shoving a presidential cigar up the twat of a chubby intern, more than likely while his wife was hopping beds between her lesbian lover and Vincent Foster, who also "committed suicide."


Sexual peccadillos, if brought to light (even though everyone did the same thing), used to give women the vapors in polite society. Now, we have pole dancers and escorts describing the presidential schwantz to the Washington Press Corps. You think anybody cares about a cat house in Southampton and the infidelities of a bunch of Wall Street money-changers during the Woodrow Wilson administration?


The Temple is already beyond cleansing, like the Trumpet presidency - not to put too fine a point on it. Trump is not the first scoundrel to snake into the Oval Office - and he surely won't be the last.  People have not changed, but the boundaries surely have; Americans are now essentially shock-proof. There is no point in having carnival barkers at a peep show when there are naked men and women wandering all over San Francisco, wearing nothing but a sliver of tin foil on their genitals. Maybe not even that . . . .


I'll stick by my original thought - if C.B. Macdonald was POTUS today, he would likely be quite similar to the equally combative Trump. And yes, with Raynor's help, Trump might have coughed up his own version of NGLA.


 


   














 


     
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 05:45:21 PM by Gib Papazian »

Mike Sweeney

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2019, 06:07:59 PM »


And yes, with Raynor's help, Trump might have coughed up his own version of NGLA.
   


Sticking to golf, I disagree. Trump was first to bid on the Sebonack property, but he would only buy it if he had the ability to build houses on the property. Name the great housing course that competes with National!!  - http://www.27east.com/news/article.cfm/General-Interest-Southampton/492955/Trump-Nearly-Added-Southampton-To-List-Of-Golf-Course-Properties-But-Sebonack-Won-Out


CB Mac cared about the golf and the status of his clubs, but not so much about money. Many/most of the best golf courses from that era, especially in remote areas, had bad business models and either did or almost went bankrupt at least once or twice. As you mentioned, Lido went bankrupt to maintain its status rather than let in the unwashed. There are some great Tom Paul threads on this in the GCA archives.


In 1908 when National opened, the world was dominated by WASP. There were two Catholics and one Jew on the Supreme Court and obviously no women. CB Mac was good at separating himself from society. He was not going to wear any MAGA hat to get elected, and you do have to get elected!!


Trump will sell a golf membership to anyone with a check ("great guy" "best in the world"), CB Mac never asked for a balance sheet, he was checking the Social Register:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Register

Wealth or fame has, traditionally, been insufficient for inclusion in the Social Register; [/color]Kim Kardashian[/color] and [/color]Gloria Vanderbilt[/color] were never listed and [/color]Donald Trump[/color], prior to his election as President of the United States, was also not included. A 1985 article reported that "enrollees need plenty of green (money), blue (blood), and lily white".[/i][/b]
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

JESII

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Reincarnation Theory
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2019, 06:21:01 PM »



And yes, with Raynor's help, Trump might have coughed up his own version of NGLA.
   

Sticking to golf, I disagree. Trump was first to bid on the Sebonack property, but he would only buy it if he had the ability to build houses on the property. Name the great housing course that competes with National!!



Merion...you've heard of it I believe...