Why does the southeast have relatively fewer great courses than the north?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't want to begin a civil war, but the southeast has proportionately fewer "ranked" or "esteemed" courses than the north. I remember remarking on a thread about the Confidential Guide: Winter Destinations, that I was surprised that the Doak Scale numbers were much lower than I expected. Tom Doak replied something to the effect, "I don't know why you should be surprised." The implication seemed to be. "of course everyone knows that the south lacks courses of substance."
If it is true why should that be, given there is year around play? Is it because the north has been playing golf longer and most of the the golden age designers were in the north?

[John Kavanaugh]

Only if you believe what you read.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Only if you believe what you read.

John, if you were to name the courses you most admire or want to play, do you have a feel for the geographical distribution?

[John Kavanaugh]

Yes. I am perfectly cabable of playing anywhere I choose. I rarely choose East of the Mississippi and North of the Carolinas. That must mean something.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Yes. I am perfectly cabable of playing anywhere I choose. I rarely choose East of the Mississippi and north of the Carolinas. That must mean something.

Fascinating, especially for a guy who lives east of the Mississippi and North of the Carolinas. I probably would pick the northeast 75% of the time.

[Steve Lang]

  Obviously its money, post-civil war...

For reference in 1870...
https://davidrumsey.georeferencer.com/maps/519589999712/transcribe

[John Kavanaugh]

Yes. I am perfectly cabable of playing anywhere I choose. I rarely choose East of the Mississippi and north of the Carolinas. That must mean something.

Fascinating, especially for a guy who lives east of the Mississippi and North of the Carolinas. I probably would pick the northeast 75% of the time.

Tommy,


You have an obligation as a Digest rater to propagate the myth. Of course you are drawn to those courses that put the gilt on your ticket. How many times does Shinny have to fail as a tournament venue before the bubble bursts? What's up with the work at Merion? Etc. etc.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that Pete Dye never designed a course as great as even the worst by CBM. It simply makes no logical sense.

[Greg Gilson]

Doesn't it come down to climate (higher humidity/temps makes it harder to grow the "finer" grasses) and topography (Florida, for example is pretty flat!).


This is certainly the case in Australia ( but read south for north, of course).

[Mike_Young]

Sand makes great golf courses.  Red clay doesn't.  Also we were recovering from the War of Northern Agression and could not build golf courses on the South while some of the classics were being built in the North.  And finally, grasses.  Cool season grasses seem better suited for playing golf to me.  And in the summer, it's too hot to play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Why is land more valuable in the North? That must make it a better place to live.

[Mike Sweeney]

Sand makes great golf courses.  Red clay doesn't.  Also we were recovering from the War of Northern Agression and could not build golf courses on the South while some of the classics were being built in the North.  And finally, grasses.  Cool season grasses seem better suited for playing golf to me.  And in the summer, it's too hot to play.

Mike Young nails it, and I would add topography and population ($$ to build) as a factor along the Southern Coast. I have played a little on the Eastern Shore of Maryland and South Carolina over the last few years and it is basically flat.


Mike Young explained the grasses to me one day years ago at Paramount CC (NY). It is interesting because Philly temps can do Bent-type grasses, but once you drop into Maryland, Bermuda starts to take over. Bermuda is great for winter play, but not as good for summer play, imo. And yes I know Kinloch is Bent, but that is obviously an exception to the general rule.


All that said, it is interesting that RTJ's arguably best course is Peachtree (never played it), so it may be as simple as less courses were built in the SE pre-WWII when restrictions were lighter and cart-ball courses were not being built.

[Mike Sweeney]

I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that Pete Dye never designed a course as great as even the worst by CBM. It simply makes no logical sense.

CBM was designing for 'club players' and Pete Dye was designing for 'tour pros" once he got his acclaim for toughness at Harbor Town and TPC Sawgrass. Add in the modern cart, and Pete Dye had no chance to compete with CBM.


I really wanted to like Bulle Rock when I played it, but I can't think of a worse course for retired guys. It was just "heroic shot" after "heroic shot" ride to the next hole and start over. Then there is Pound Ridge GC...


There is a reason that Disney tore up the Dye course rather than the Fazio course when they built the Four Seasons at Disney. They had a choice as they were basically on the same location.

[John Kavanaugh]

Now that Gil Hanse is working down south we might see some love. Ohoopee Baby!!!

[John Kavanaugh]

Maybe now that the baby boomers are retiring the ratings will follow.

[Keith Williams]

Mike Sweeney,


Getting a little off the topic, and probably not worth debate, but did you ever play the Dye and Fazio courses at Disney?


The Dye course was not his stereotypical product.  I actually admired it more than the Fazio design, as it represented a number of departures from the norm.  It was very low profile, was not reliant on length, had great variety in its holes, and like a few other Dye Courses (the original TPC Sawgrass and PGA Dye in Port St. Lucie) had almost no formal rough, instead had wide fairways that transitioned into pine straw or sandy waste.


On the other hand, though, the Fazio course did have lots of eye candy...so it had that going for it.


Keith.

[Michael Wolf]

My guess would be a combination of the explanations offered above.


Where there is good land, good soil, money, and a good architect, there are good golf courses in the Southeast, the same as Long Island or anywhere else. I'd offer Pinehurst and Ohoopee as examples.


Occasionally there were strong enough stewards of the game to overcome less than ideal soil, such as at Augusta or Mossy Oak. Same as Oakmont or Merion.


The only glaring black hole to me is along the panhandle, where there are (or were) ideal dunesland and plenty of money. The area to the east of Destin FL would seem to be an absolute no brainer for a great golf course. But then again there are some places around San Diego where you could say the same thing. Sometimes luck is involved. What if the CC of Birmingham hadn't had a huge wind storm at exactly the time when Pete Dye was the hottest name in golf? What if CC of Huntsville had been built on the "right" side of town? It is what it is.


MW

[Tommy Williamsen]

Yes. I am perfectly cabable of playing anywhere I choose. I rarely choose East of the Mississippi and north of the Carolinas. That must mean something.

Fascinating, especially for a guy who lives east of the Mississippi and North of the Carolinas. I probably would pick the northeast 75% of the time.

Tommy,


You have an obligation as a Digest rater to propagate the myth. Of course you are drawn to those courses that put the gilt on your ticket.

C'mon now John, that was uncalled for.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tommy,


We all have obligations in life. A raters is to the top of his list. If I had ever been asked to be a rater my travels would have differed accordingly. But that is just me. I apologize for the generalization.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike Sweeney,


Getting a little off the topic, and probably not worth debate, but did you ever play the Dye and Fazio courses at Disney?

The Dye course was not his stereotypical product.  I actually admired it more than the Fazio design, as it represented a number of departures from the norm.  It was very low profile, was not reliant on length, had great variety in its holes, and like a few other Dye Courses (the original TPC Sawgrass and PGA Dye in Port St. Lucie) had almost no formal rough, instead had wide fairways that transitioned into pine straw or sandy waste.

Keith.

We were Disney Vacation Club for years so I am familiar with both courses and probably agree with you but probably split 5 to 5 on the 10 Round Test. I was probably trying to tweek Kavanaugh a little too much.


Boston College @ Duke basketball on now, so the payback could be harsh tonight!!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sand makes great golf courses.  Red clay doesn't.  Also we were recovering from the War of Northern Agression and could not build golf courses on the South while some of the classics were being built in the North.  And finally, grasses.  Cool season grasses seem better suited for playing golf to me.  And in the summer, it's too hot to play.

Mike Young nails it, and I would add topography and population ($$ to build) as a factor along the Southern Coast. I have played a little on the Eastern Shore of Maryland and South Carolina over the last few years and it is basically flat.


Mike Young explained the grasses to me one day years ago at Paramount CC (NY). It is interesting because Philly temps can do Bent-type grasses, but once you drop into Maryland, Bermuda starts to take over. Bermuda is great for winter play, but not as good for summer play, imo. And yes I know Kinloch is Bent, but that is obviously an exception to the general rule.


All that said, it is interesting that RTJ's arguably best course is Peachtree (never played it), so it may be as simple as less courses were built in the SE pre-WWII when restrictions were lighter and cart-ball courses were not being built.

Mike, there relatively few courses in either VA or MD that have much Bermuda. There are some exceptions. Forty years I belonged to a club that tried to use Bermuda on its fairways. We had a very cold winter and the Bermuda never came back and the course went bankrupt. A course on the Eastern Shore of MD also had Bermuda but ran into the same problem.

[Tom_Doak]

You’ve got most of the reasons:  money, history, topography, soils.


The one missed so far is intention.  How many courses in the Southeast or Southwest were built to be a great golf course first and foremost, with no real estate component at all, and no TOUR involvement?


Seminole, Augusta, Peachtree, Pinehurst #2, Colonial.  Calusa Pines, I guess (never been there).  Champions?  Maybe a few others.


How many in the northeast?  Dozens and dozens, if not hundreds.  Sheer volume.  You could say that’s all about money, too, but it’s partly about the intention of the guy with the money.

[jeffwarne]

Most courses in the south were built post Golden Age and pretty much (until quite recently) most courses built from the 60's on were RE developments
There are a few Golden Age gems in the south that were never appreciated as well by the grass is greener (literally) crowd
Much of Coastal Ga , SC, and Florida was built on during the dark ages
i.e. the architecture was secondary and marginal at best when most courses in the south were built.
The north has plenty of shite too, just enough great courses were built before the developers took over


edit:I see my post crossed with Tom's

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike, there relatively few courses in either VA or MD that have much Bermuda. There are some exceptions. Forty years I belonged to a club that tried to use Bermuda on its fairways. We had a very cold winter and the Bermuda never came back and the course went bankrupt. A course on the Eastern Shore of MD also had Bermuda but ran into the same problem.

Tommy,


1) Here is the quote from the yet to be implemented Master Plan at the Naval Academy GC:


http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/navy/genrel/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/master-plan.pdf




Currently, the USNA utilizes a bermudagrass and ryegrass system where the bermuda dominates during the summer months and the ryegrass covers the fairways through the winter. The two grass system in place at the USNA works well for the property and is recommended to remain.

While this system is functional, the playing surfaces lack a refined quality in the summer time. The Master Plan calls for the introduction of a new hybrid bermudagrass that provide outstanding playing conditions and will benefit the golfer and maintenance staff.
2) Eisenhower is putting in Bermuda fairways as we type:

https://www.eisenhowergolf.com/course-improvements-are-coming
We're excited to announce that in 2018 we will begin work on remaking Eisenhower into an even better golf course!
+ Bermuda grass fairway and tee conversion
+ New Bent grass greens

3) When I have played and driven by Queenstown Harbor in the off-season, the fairways are always brown and it felt like Bermuda.

4) I have only been out to Ocean City, MD the one time and you could be correct there for sure, but Bay Creek down in VA (Eastern Shore) is Bermuda too -http://www.tee1off.com/golf-courses/bay-creek-golf-resort-palmer-course

[John Emerson]

Seems to me like the obvious answers is that is where majority of people/immigrants landed when they came from across the pond.  The major metropolitan areas and dense cities of people started there then expanded in all directions.  Same as golf.