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Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2019, 01:37:30 PM »
Erik,

It seems your implying that VdV did not possess the mental ability to asses that 2nd shot as Sean has.  Of course hindsight is 20/20 but you don't think he could see that a miss left, right, or short in the burn was no good beforehand?

I don't know who made the bigger mistake, him or his caddie for not intervening, especially after getting damn lucky with his tee ball...

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2019, 01:47:44 PM »
Kalen

I absolutely recall, in room full of men doing the same, shouting at the tv (VdV) to layup with the second.  We all wanted VdV to win.  With horse throats, we all shouted at the tv (VdV again  :D ) to chip out sideways for the third shot.  None of us understood why, after two poor shots, would VdV take on the risk of water from the hay he was in.  It was great entertainment because we simply couldn't comprehend how a seasoned pro could have such a mental breakdown.  For sure a good caddie might have made all the difference.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jim Nugent

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2019, 02:08:16 PM »
I wonder what Nicklaus would have done on that 72nd hole, if he had been in VV's shoes? 

Actually, we have a hint: the 1967 US Open at Baltusrol.  Jack stood on the 72nd tee with a four stroke lead.  He hit iron off the tee, to make sure he missed the water on the left, and aiming for a par 5.  He again played safe on his second shot: an 8-iron short of the creek.  Even though he hit it terribly, it kept him safe.  Then came the famous towering 1-iron onto the green that lead to birdie. 

Point is that Jack took the only danger on the hole out of play -- twice.  He ended up winning by four strokes.     

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2019, 02:10:58 PM »
Here is the BBC broadcast, as it happened in real time.  I don't know whats worse, watching him or his wife's nervous reactions.  And his caddie is nowhere to be found before any of these shots...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV8Qj91T3o0





Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2019, 02:17:42 PM »
To say VdV gets a triple because of bad luck isn't close to reality.
Bull. Without bad luck on his second he makes 4 or 5 and wins outright. Heck, let his drive roll in the drink and he's making 5 or 6 and winning outright.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Greg Clark

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2019, 02:38:28 PM »
Seems to me this isn't an either/or thing.  He made some bad decsions, hit some bad shots and got some bad luck.  And no one that watched it will ever forget it. 

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2019, 02:43:37 PM »
I had forgot....that Peter A said this little gem after hitting it into the burn and was considering playing from it..

"Would somebody go and stop him, give him a large brandy and mop him down"

Michael Tamburrini

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2019, 02:07:40 AM »
Laying up for his second wasn't an easy shot because the fairway was so narrow and the rough so high (and he wasn't the most accurate of players).


Hitting his second shot over the burn to the right of the green probably was the safest play (he was the only one of the challengers who carried the burn on his second shot). Bouncing back the way it did was horrific luck. Even if it had ricocheted into the water he'd have still won.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2019, 11:36:32 AM »
Mike,

I've heard this argument before, but I just can't buy it. I just re-checked Google Earth and it would have been a 140 yard layup to a spot that would leave him 100 yards to middle of the green.  Are you telling me a pro can't hit a 9 iron and find a 20-25 yard fairway?  But yet he has the ability to take on water short, OB left, grandstands to the right with a long iron?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 11:39:43 AM by Kalen Braley »

Pat Burke

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2019, 02:35:09 AM »
Mike,

I've heard this argument before, but I just can't buy it. I just re-checked Google Earth and it would have been a 140 yard layup to a spot that would leave him 100 yards to middle of the green.  Are you telling me a pro can't hit a 9 iron and find a 20-25 yard fairway?  But yet he has the ability to take on water short, OB left, grandstands to the right with a long iron?


I’ve thought the same Kalen.....it is not u usual to take a bail out like to the right at Carnoustie, especially knowing all the space over there by the first tee and everything.
But from where VDV hit his tee shot, the angle was not that severe, and the reality is he could pick any short iron in his bag from SW to 8 iron and just pick the club you have the most confidence in and hit the correct yardage. 
The bail out to the right sounds good, until your pitching from a sketchy lie towards a hard green with OB right behind on the angle your on.
I’ve played Carnoustie in two events and when I look at it, I’m surprised he would hit wedge down the fairway on his second.  The third is a better angle and a pretty easy short iron


BUT, the shot he hit into the stands is one of the worst breaks I’ve ever seen

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2019, 08:36:03 AM »
VdV had played so well and I'm sure he wanted to "finish like a champion" that anything else did not occur to him. He just didn't think like a champion.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2019, 10:12:04 AM »
I actually disagree with all three of the premises of the thread


1.Dumbest shot? no.........The pin was back from his angle, he hit it solid, it skipped a bit, and went a few feet too far. Obviously it never occurred to him long was was possible. Could he have been smarter and left it 10 feet short?-in hindsight yes-but it's not like he tried a flop from a bare lie with water behind. He just hit it slightly too far.


2. Balls on slopes Worst break? no........... dangerous slope and definitely needed to be a consideration-maybe even return to where he hit the first shot. Bad break? balls roll quite often, just rarely after a player has placed them. Rules change needed? No-it's no different than if his ball had stopped on the bank after his tee shot-then rolled in as he walked up. Bad setup? yes-either a drop area or less shaved banks should be a consideration for officials.


3.Gutsiest putt? no-guys commonly make long putts after deflatingly bad holes. It's almost like sheer resignation-it actually looked like he rushed it a bit out of pace of play worries (no doubt Spieth or Bryson D would've take 4x as long as they just don't care what others think) the old joke-How'd you make a 12? Made a 10 footer.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JLahrman

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2019, 02:16:36 PM »
Kalen

I absolutely recall, in room full of men doing the same, shouting at the tv (VdV) to layup with the second.  We all wanted VdV to win.  With horse throats, we all shouted at the tv (VdV again  :D ) to chip out sideways for the third shot.  None of us understood why, after two poor shots, would VdV take on the risk of water from the hay he was in.  It was great entertainment because we simply couldn't comprehend how a seasoned pro could have such a mental breakdown.  For sure a good caddie might have made all the difference.

Ciao



No way should he have laid up. He only had 180ish to clear the water. If it's in the stands he gets a drop. Why in the world would he lay up there?


And on the third, if he couldn't get enough on the ball to get it over the water, why would pitching sideways be any better? He couldn't have controlled the distance to get it into the fairway either, and might have pitched it into a worse lie. Going sideways was the worst decision he could have made. Maybe he could have taken an unplayable and gone backwards as far as he wanted, not sure how feasible that would have been.


The driver off the tee is free to debate, but after that I don't think he made a bad decision.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2019, 02:23:44 PM »
JLar,

We've only said like 10 times the burn was short on every line...and OB was in play left and long... and the stands right of the green. 

And laying up took all that trouble out of play and would have given him a simple wedge to the middle of the green where he could have still saved par and his fragile ego...

P.S.  Did you also know he had a 3 shot lead?  Not to win just another tournament but The Open and have his name immortalized on the Claret Jug.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2019, 03:10:07 PM »
Kalen

I absolutely recall, in room full of men doing the same, shouting at the tv (VdV) to layup with the second.  We all wanted VdV to win.  With horse throats, we all shouted at the tv (VdV again  :D ) to chip out sideways for the third shot.  None of us understood why, after two poor shots, would VdV take on the risk of water from the hay he was in.  It was great entertainment because we simply couldn't comprehend how a seasoned pro could have such a mental breakdown.  For sure a good caddie might have made all the difference.

Ciao


No way should he have laid up. He only had 180ish to clear the water. If it's in the stands he gets a drop. Why in the world would he lay up there?

And on the third, if he couldn't get enough on the ball to get it over the water, why would pitching sideways be any better? He couldn't have controlled the distance to get it into the fairway either, and might have pitched it into a worse lie. Going sideways was the worst decision he could have made. Maybe he could have taken an unplayable and gone backwards as far as he wanted, not sure how feasible that would have been.

The driver off the tee is free to debate, but after that I don't think he made a bad decision.

Here is what I know.

VdV second was a poor strike, not as bad as his drive, but the same sort of miss...well right of the line. He had an option to play back into the fairway short of the green.

VdV risked trying to carry the water for his third.  He failed.  He could have played sideways or a bit back. 

VdV risked trying to carry the bunker for his 5th and failed.  He could hve played pin highis left/

VdV got up and down from the sand for a 7. 

Every risk he took didn't come off.

VdV lost.

Folks can say it was bad luck.  I say the core problem which allowed for bad luck, penalty shot and a bunker shot was due to is poor course management.  A touring professional does not lose a three shot lead on one hole without screwing up.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 03:12:26 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2019, 03:23:14 PM »
Sean,

I think Risk is the appropriate word here.  Given the Title was effectively already his, he took on unnecessary risk, several times, with nothing additional to gain....but everything to lose.  Its as simple as that. 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 03:30:28 PM by Kalen Braley »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2019, 03:36:45 PM »
VdV second was a poor strike, not as bad as his drive, but the same sort of miss...well right of the line. He had an option to play back into the fairway short of the green.
I disagree. He probably hit it within about five yards of where he was aiming.

VdV risked trying to carry the water for his third.  He failed.  He could have played sideways or a bit back.
You don't know that. Maybe there was a clump of grass to the right of the ball, preventing him from getting much on it going left/sideways.

Every risk he took didn't come off.
And had the ball been 1/4" in any other direction on his second shot, he is the British Open Champion that year.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2019, 04:26:10 PM »
Well that's really stupid then. Aim 5 yards left of the stands? 10 yards right of the left edge of the green?

We can certainly disagree, but to suggest that a triple bogey was the result of one bad bounce is a failure to properly follow what happened. There is absolutely no fault for decision making or execution, yet a triple was written on the card? Your take on what happened simply doesn't add up 

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 05:25:42 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2019, 05:16:34 PM »
Well that's really stupid then. Aim 5 yards left of the stands? 10 yards right of the left edge of the green?
Why wouldn't you aim there? It gets you near the green in two, worst case* you get a drop near the green, and you have four shots left to spare.

* 99% of the time, anyway.

We can certainly disagree, but to suggest that a triple bogey was the result of one bad bounce is a failure to properly follow what happened.
I haven't done that - I've said luck played the bigger role than any choking or decision making or poor shots.

Despite saying it again now, you actually have no idea what the lie looked like and whether he could have gone out sideways.

There is absolutely no fault for decision making or execution, yet a triple was written on the card?
I didn't say that there was absolutely no fault for those things, I've only ever said that luck played a bigger role. Not that those other things played NO role.

Your take on what happened simply doesn't add up
It adds up just fine: I believe he makes a bogey or double if his ball is 1/4" or more in any direction at that moment in time.

I'm not alone in this. Others have agreed with me, or made similar statements. And that doesn't mean any of us are "right" - none of us have access to an alternate universe where we can test these things out.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2019, 05:45:25 PM »
It's interesting that VdV's good luck after a bad whiff off the tee accounts for one saved shot...presumably. Yet his bad luck accounts for three lost shots..presumably, according to your world events. Why is it that his bad luck doesn't mean one recovery shot to get back on track? Why exactly is that bad break a 3 shot bad break?


Nevermind, of course you are right. Touring pros always blame bad luck for triple bogeys.




Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2019, 07:14:47 PM »
It's interesting that VdV's good luck after a bad whiff off the tee accounts for one saved shot...presumably.
We don't know. If he dunks his tee shot, maybe he still makes double or even a bogey because he might then lay up with his next shot because he might be 25 yards further back or something.

Yet his bad luck accounts for three lost shots..presumably, according to your world events.
I'm simply suggesting that he'd be lying two near the green were it not for that luck, and that there's a pretty good likelihood he could have gotten down in four.

Three shots? He only needed to pitch it anywhere on the green and two-putt. That's two shots - 5 vs. 7.

Why is it that his bad luck doesn't mean one recovery shot to get back on track? Why exactly is that bad break a 3 shot bad break?
I don't know what math you're doing man.

Nevermind, of course you are right. Touring pros always blame bad luck for triple bogeys.
I've never said I was "right." Only that none of us can know, because we haven't got an alternate universe in which to test anything out. Nor did I say he makes a par (three shots). I simply said he's likely to win the British Open. That's six or better.

One time, four days ago, I said he makes 4 or 5, and if he hits it in the water, 5 or 6. The 4 would have required him to get up and down (which he did from the bunker, which wasn't that far from where he hit the ball), the 5 was far more likely.

So please stop putting words in my mouth - "three shots cost" and "I am right." I've not said either of those things. Nobody here can be certain of anything - even VdV himself can't. After all, he made a 6 with a putter, but that doesn't mean that was the smart play at the time, either.

P.S. What "other Tour pros" do in other completely different situations is irrelevant here. VdV had some tremendously bad luck, and I'm far from the only person who believe that had his ball hit a little bit differently, he wins that tournament.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2019, 08:08:20 PM »
Erik

Removing luck from the equation, whether good or bad, is the point.

He was 3 7 irons (assuming ~165 yard shots) from the middle of the green where he could have virtually eliminated any type of luck.  I just mapped it on Google Earth, all relatively safe shots, with a simple 2 putt for the Claret Jug.

As one who argues about playing percentages with leaving the flag stick in, for only a slight advantage, i don't understand why you  think VdV shouldn't have done same, with percentages far more significant.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 08:11:48 PM by Kalen Braley »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #72 on: February 10, 2019, 09:45:19 PM »
Removing luck from the equation, whether good or bad, is the point.
The vast majority of the time, and I'm talking upper 90s percentile, I think a ball hit +/- five yards of the line he chose results in him winning the event. You're basing everything on hindsight after an absolute freak occurrence.

Had he laid up, and had his next shot hit the edge of a sprinkler head or a divot repair tool that fell out of the pocket of a caddie in the previous group and bounced OB, in that alternate universe you'd be on here talking about how he should have just sent it right of the green into the bunker or grandstands, gotten his next shot on or near the green, and gotten down in three or fewer from there to win outright.

You can't "remove luck from the equation," and your basis for saying that was a one-in-a-million type of unlucky occurrence.

He was 3 7 irons (assuming ~165 yard shots) from the middle of the green where he could have virtually eliminated any type of luck.
Not true. Hitting three 7-irons doesn't "virtually eliminate any type of luck."

Also: Check Google Earth again. I measured about 200 yards just to reach the fairway, so what guy - a guy playing well enough to be leading the British Open by three - is going to lay up with a 7-iron into the rough off the tee of the 72nd hole?

I just mapped it on Google Earth, all relatively safe shots, with a simple 2 putt for the Claret Jug.
When is the last time you saw anyone do this?

In addition to giving far, far too much weight to luck (good or bad), you're seemingly not understanding the mindset of a guy leading an event by three. He's playing well - that's why he's winning - and guys in that position don't think they're going to suddenly score like an 18 handicapper. They think - almost always rightly so - that if they get into a little trouble, they can still get down in bogey or double and win outright. But to play "prevent defense" is to change entirely your mindset, which sports psychologists are keen to tell you NOT to do.

As one who argues about playing percentages with leaving the flag stick in, for only a slight advantage, i don't understand why you  think VdV shouldn't have done same, with percentages far more significant.
I disagree that laying up in the rough with a 7-iron isn't playing the odds.

Furthermore, I'm not saying that "he played the odds."

Odds probably say: hit a 3W off the tee - it's enough to carry into the fairway while probably staying short of the burn right. But that likely leaves him about 265, and the "layup" is about 23 yards wide. (https://cl.ly/d309852ed393/Image%202019-02-10%20at%209.38.06%20PM.png). And heck, Kyle Stanley laid up and made an 8 at Torrey a few years ago: laying up doesn't guarantee anything. (The odds also probably favor hitting a driver over laying up with a 7-iron into the rough - even if the driver finds the burn, he's got FOUR shots to get down from there to win outright, and he's 220 yards away from the green and gets to drop in a lie he chooses, as opposed to being 330 yards away in the rough playing it as it lies.)

After he found himself in the crap for his second, odds would change depending on the lie and all sorts of things that we cannot know. We weren't there. Maybe pitching out sideways was the smart play, maybe it wasn't. Maybe doing what he did works 99% of the time, and that was the 1% that it doesn't. That's not how odds work - you can't determine "odds" by one event.

I'm saying that it's convenient to look back on things and make some sort of determination when those things included a 1 in a million chance of the ball hitting that railing just so to end up how it ended up. I think that if he hits the same second shot 1000 more times, he gets a 6 or less the vast, vast, vast majority of the time.

I'm not familiar with poker odds enough to conjure up a situation, but it'd be like someone who is good at poker making the smart play, and then someone hitting on a one-in-a-million card on the river to take the pot, and then blaming the loser for choking when he simply had some freakish bad luck, and if he replays the hand a bunch of other times, he'd win the vast, vast, vast majority of the time.

Removing luck from the equation, whether good or bad, is the point.

In short, you're acting like if he hits the same tee shot and the same second shot, he makes 7 every time, when in reality he probably makes 7 very, very seldom, and makes 4, 5, or 6 almost every time, winning outright.

You're using hindsight to judge some freak luck as if he could have foreseen it. A guy walks to work the same way every day, and one day a piano falls on his head, completely without warning. "Why, he should have driven in a car that day, and removed luck from the equation."
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 09:47:59 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2019, 04:43:34 AM »
As to VdV at Carnoustie and this threads title -
Dumbest shot - well, he certainly could have played it differently!
Worst break - yes, a few fractions on an inch difference in where it hit the stand and the outcome would/could have been very different
Gutsiest putt - yes, he did exceptionally well to hole out given what had happened in the previous few minutes.


Been a few meltdowns and bad breaks, maybe bad decisions, at Carnoustie over the decades - Mac Smith, Jose Jurado, Andres Romero etc etc.


And many a major has been ‘thrown away’ or gifted to another over the decades even by greats of the game like Sneed at the US Open, Palmer at the Masters etc etc.


Atb

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Dumbest shot, worst break, and gutsiest putt I've ever seen from a leader
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2019, 11:16:11 AM »
Phil, standing on 18 tee with a 3 shot lead, calm wind, and a 40 yard wide fairway....just hit an iron off the tee.

Gambling Phil, one of the most aggressive players on tour....

Update: 3 conservative iron shots, with a one putt for a 4, on a 530 yard hole.  Low risk, no good luck or bad luck involved.

P.S.  Erik, 17 fairway at Carnoustie is not OB for 18 and there was no-one behind.  That's where VdVs first 165 yard shot would have been hit to, taking the burn completely out of play.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 11:34:43 AM by Kalen Braley »