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MCirba

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Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« on: February 23, 2019, 11:32:18 AM »
Came across this cool pictorial essay this morning which shows some of the evolution of the golf course architecturally.

https://www.pebblebeach.com/insidepebblebeach/then-and-now-100-years-of-pebble-beach/?nck=8558190401&fbclid=IwAR0bD4h4cwQbq53NSmwaXWrC27uR9tMPf876ae6moi9_A5VUF1weTkEGRuI
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kalen Braley

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Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2019, 12:01:49 PM »
Mike,

That was terrific.  Thanks for posting and I loved the extra details on holes like 7 and 8.

What really struck me is how wild the place used to look.  Obviously the land became so valuable it would have been near impossible to hold off the surrounding development, but a bit of a pity its lost most of that rugged look...

James Brown

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Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2019, 03:27:48 PM »
This makes me wonder why no one is pushing for a restoration similar to what they have done at Pinehurst, here they take out grass that used to be sand. 

Jim Lipstate

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2019, 05:50:16 PM »
Striking how natural the bunkering and surrounds were originally. I would love to see a return to that look. Modern holes look so homogenized in comparison.

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2019, 06:39:56 PM »
Bloody marvellous post, Mike, but making me sad as much as happy.
If only more of our most ‘influential’ Clubs and Courses held their heritage in greater esteem, maybe we wouldn’t have to endure the relentless homogenisation of the grounds for golf.
TOC, Augusta, Pebble et alia are utterly culpable in the dumbing-down of design.
If the national conservation bodies, planners and historic preservation trusts, etc, would pay as much attention to golf courses as they do to every other designed landscape, maybe we’d have half a chance to preserve original design and detailing.
Sadly, I can’t see that happening in my/our lifetimes.
In the case of Pebble, it’s especially surprising given the proximity to all of the other ‘local’ wondrousness.
F.

The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2019, 03:37:33 AM »
Marty if you allowed so called conservation organisations to get involved you’d also strip out watering systems and have to seek permission to top dress, punch greens, etc. Would be an unmitigated disaster for golf.
Cave Nil Vino

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2019, 04:21:34 AM »
Not enough heritage, memorabilia and especially old course photos are on display at most clubs.
Show folks what things used to be like, especially what the course used to be like, and the tendency to upgrade, modernise etc may not be as strong as it otherwise might be.
Atb

Steve Kline

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Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2019, 04:46:15 AM »
A rugged landscape stirs my soul. It makes yearn to play golf there much more than the homogenized (as said above) landscapes of today. I would be much more interested in playing PB if it looked like those old pictures. It’s why Pinehurst is more compelling. It’s part of the appeal of abandon and Sand Valley. And it’s definitely a big part of the appeal of links golf.


Overcoming and conquering the rugged nature of a golf is a part of the challenge, or the challenge. When you remove that, par and other things have to be what is overcome. I feel that when a course looks rugged and wild you don’t care about length, par, etc. so much because you are more worried about beating nature.


The ruggedness also leads to the whole idea of this is how I would walk to explore the property. Homogenization doesn’t lend to that.


Thanks for the great link!

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2019, 06:50:08 AM »

Thanks for the great link!


Fantastic find.


I do wonder about the maintenance cost of those old style bunkers in the winter storms. Perhaps that is part of the equation too.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2019, 10:02:00 AM »
An older thread with a few more photos from the early days.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61371.0.html
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2019, 10:41:00 AM »
Since this a PB piece, Let's hope it implies that the PBC is looking into it's roots, for visions, for the future.


While restoring the sandy look is not an option, changing it's current "Florida" look should be considered. It should represent the more rugged nature of it's coastal environs, rather than the smoother lines of a Florida coast.


 Only one curious issue I found in the text, was in the conclusions on Fowler's bunker right, tree left, formula. 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 12:03:35 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2019, 11:14:29 AM »
I'm a little mixed on the work at Pinehurst though overall a good thing(and certainly a major step forward from the previous negative evolution there).


that said, would really like to see a restoration/sympathetic yet practical renovation at Pebble to something resembling many of those photos-simply amazing


paging Augusta-wake up
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2019, 01:26:05 PM »
As a golf course architecture enthusiast, I would be much more eager and inclined to shell out $500.00 to play PB as it was originally intended than I would now. If one of our esteemed GCA's could work magic and get the course back close to how it looked 100 yrs. ago I'd be one of the first in line to play the reimagined course. Who owns PB anyway and is it possible ownership would entertain a restoration the likes we are talking?
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2019, 10:17:22 AM »
The PB Corporation was purchased almost 20 years ago by a consortium of individuals.  Including Peter Uberoth, Arnie, Clint, etc.


Architecturally, they've been more aligned philosophically with the attitudes of Augusta, then that of the Oakmonts, and Shinneythingys of the world.


But even with that handicap, the $500 should not be stopping anyone from paying it once.


Full disclosure, I paid $195 twice, back when that number was as ridiculous as 500 is today. It was not disappointing. Especially considering all the expectations.






 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2019, 10:32:55 AM »
But even with that handicap, the $500 should not be stopping anyone from paying it once.
PB is a bucket list course that I plan to play regardless. Difference being, I would literally rush out to play PB it were it restored to it's 1919 roots.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Jim Lipstate

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2019, 01:39:12 PM »
I remember my disappointment the first time I played the 17th hole. Basically hit the tee shot over what amounts to a grassed-in cow pasture to a narrow hourglass green placed on the diagonal. The original hole with the natural sandscape bunkering is striking. If it were up to me I would remove much of the wall to wall grass fairway leading up to the hole along the lines turf removal at Pinehurst 2 and 4. What a sight as you face a tough par three likely playing into the wind and framed by sand, flashes of lush green approaches and the ocean. I think that is what one would hope to see at the penultimate hole leading to the grand finish.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2019, 03:28:00 PM »
Unlike down the road at MPCC/Cypress/Spyglass/Spanish, the land at Pebble is not naturally sandy.


In theory, the look of the seventh green surrounded by sand-swept dunes always intrigues, but there's a photo in this collection that I'd never sen before that kind of proves to me why they went away from that look and why it's the wrong way to go at Pebble.


The aerial photo, under the heading The Sixth green, looking down at basically all of Arrowhead Point (six and seven greens plus eight fairway), shows how Egan created dunes bunkers around those greens, even though dunes don't otherwise exist in the area. It looks ... not good. And it's very easy to see how such "created" areas would have been very difficult to maintain.


There's a lot to not love about the look of PB as it exists today, for sure. But what I'd like to recapture from these old photos are the bigger greens and some of the more wild and woolly looking bunkers (I really like the Dr Mac look of some of those bunkers on 8 that's gone gone now, not to mention that Egan "hanging" bunker that almost ends up on the beach!). But you can't do a "Pinehurst" here, because there's not natural sandy ground to uncover if you limit the irrigation. And building fake dunes in a few spots looks, honestly, even worse.

Jay Revell

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Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2019, 04:30:22 PM »
We had quite the lively chat on all this over on Twitter this weekend. Lots of opinions, but much of the crowd agreed with how uninspiring the current grazing patterns are at Pebble. I'm constantly amazed at how little that resort innovates when compared to other destinations around the country. At some point that is going to catch up to them as tastes continue to evolve. Some say that the numbers on the balance sheet prove otherwise, but there was also a time were companies like Sears, Kodak, and Blockbuster seemed like they couldn't possibly be knocked from their perch. We shall see...


I wish they would look at Del Monte and Spanish Bay as great opportunities to renovate and create more interesting golf as part of the resort. As short courses become more popular it would also be wise to turn Peter Hay into something more unique than a pasture. I realize that the main course may not be cost effective to shut down for a major overhaul, but I found the conditioning and general attributes of the course to be a bore. The water and cliffs make for an unforgettable walk, but for the freight they charge I wouldn't recommend it beyond a one time play.


The 1929 photos show something that, although unnatural at least provide high levels of interest. Pebble needs bigger greens, wider corridors, and more interesting bunkers that come to the edges of both. What is there today is a bloated golf farm. I love that area as much as anywhere in American golf, but the mothership needs some serious work. 

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2019, 12:47:44 PM »
We had quite the lively chat on all this over on Twitter this weekend. Lots of opinions, but much of the crowd agreed with how uninspiring the current grazing patterns are at Pebble. I'm constantly amazed at how little that resort innovates when compared to other destinations around the country. At some point that is going to catch up to them as tastes continue to evolve. Some say that the numbers on the balance sheet prove otherwise, but there was also a time were companies like Sears, Kodak, and Blockbuster seemed like they couldn't possibly be knocked from their perch. We shall see...


I wish they would look at Del Monte and Spanish Bay as great opportunities to renovate and create more interesting golf as part of the resort. As short courses become more popular it would also be wise to turn Peter Hay into something more unique than a pasture. I realize that the main course may not be cost effective to shut down for a major overhaul, but I found the conditioning and general attributes of the course to be a bore. The water and cliffs make for an unforgettable walk, but for the freight they charge I wouldn't recommend it beyond a one time play.


The 1929 photos show something that, although unnatural at least provide high levels of interest. Pebble needs bigger greens, wider corridors, and more interesting bunkers that come to the edges of both. What is there today is a bloated golf farm. I love that area as much as anywhere in American golf, but the mothership needs some serious work.


Jay,


I know you like to fancy yourself as one of the modern saviors of a game that's not in despair.  And as an aside, I really appreciate your blog post on how to pack for a trip to Sweetens Cove; but, not every great course needs a restoration from the "approved" cadre of golf course architects to continue to be great.


Pebble Beach is, was and always will be a flagship of American golf with few peers.  If only they let the dogs on the course instead of the beach maybe you could appreciate it more.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2019, 01:03:59 PM »
I really appreciate your blog post on how to pack for a trip to Sweetens Cove


Better than Joel Bauer's?

Bob Montle

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Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2019, 01:58:14 PM »
Striking how natural the bunkering and surrounds were originally. I would love to see a return to that look. Modern holes look so homogenized in comparison.

+1
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Mark Pritchett

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Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2019, 10:04:00 AM »
I really appreciate your blog post on how to pack for a trip to Sweetens Cove


Better than Joel Bauer's?


Hilarious 

Jay Revell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach celebrates Centennial (Then & Now Photos)
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2019, 10:52:48 AM »
JC I certainly don't pretend to be anything other than an observer and commentator. I think our game has much momentum and if we are willing to get out of our own way we'd be doing great. I say the same for Pebble...I think if they would be willing to consider the next evolution of their product it would benefit them in the long run. The course has one of the best settings for golf in the world and some tremendous holes in its routing, but I think the way in which it plays today stinks. That's my opinion and with the addition of a few dollars you can use it to get a great cup of joe at Carmel Valley Coffee. I will certainly agree with your point about allowing dogs on the course...perhaps they could help chase off the hot dog thieving seagulls.   
 ;)