Water that abuts a green

[JESII]

Thanks James and Sean...hope you're both well.


Yes, I think the hole must be evolutionary...especially since it's "par" has evolved from 5 to 4. I can't quite get comfortable with Tom saying you can't have a green like #13 at Augusta because of the risk someone would putt the ball into the water.


this conversation feels like Shivas' old debate about width doesn't equal options, it equals forgiveness. What good is a contour if you can easily navigate around/away from it?

[Tom_Doak]

Weren’t many bunkers once watery drainage pits many, many decades ago?
Atb

Not on purpose

[Tim Gavrich]

Secession GC outside Beaufort is a study in relationships between the edge of a green and a "penalty area." It's been a couple years since I last played it but in looking at it on Google Maps just now, I was struck by just how many greens have water nearby (all but the 9th, 10th and 12th, by my count, though you could make an argument for 10 and 12). Recalling my rounds there, though, the approach shots don't feel quite as overbearing as one would think because a) the greens are big, b) the greens are relatively modestly contoured and c) only occasionally is the water/marsh really staring you in the face on an approach. More often, the wet stuff is off to the side or the back, such that you mainly take in the apparent generosity of the target first, rather than the water.


There are also some spots where the marsh is at just enough of a remove from a putting surface that it functions more as a psychological than physical hazard. On the excellent short par-5 5th and long par-4 13th, it's 10-12 yards from the nearest green edge. This scales with the longer clubs one is likely to hit into those greens and is just enough of a visual buffer to bait the hook. On 14 and 17, the water creates basically an all-or-nothing proposition, which makes more sense because the player is hitting a short club to the green.

[Jim Nugent]

But water alongside a green messes with that.  You can't play to the correct side of the contour if there's water there, and you've got to be very careful about putting in a contour that will cause a player playing over it to maybe go into the water.  Remember the year Tiger Woods putted into the creek from the top tier on 13 at Augusta?  Can't have that.  And I'd rather give up the water next to the green, than give up the ability to employ contour.

So if you designed ANGC, or at least #13 there, you wouldn't route the hole along the creek the way Mackenzie did, positioning the green where he did?
Seems to me the creek running across/along the fairway and green as it does makes the second shot.  i.e. without it, the hole is nowhere near as compelling, strategic or dramatic.  Tiger, btw, went on to win that year anyway. 

[MCirba]

I think the best holes with water abutting a green also have a diagonal element involved in a carry so it's not a simple matter of either playing away or playing foolishly.   Best examples off the top of my head include 12 at ANGC & 11 at Merion.   

[MClutterbuck]

But water alongside a green messes with that.  You can't play to the correct side of the contour if there's water there, and you've got to be very careful about putting in a contour that will cause a player playing over it to maybe go into the water.  Remember the year Tiger Woods putted into the creek from the top tier on 13 at Augusta?  Can't have that.  And I'd rather give up the water next to the green, than give up the ability to employ contour.

The discussion of the Mark Broadie book a month or two ago reinforced this idea to me.  He says pretty clearly that the only good strategy for a pro on a hole with water alongside the green is to aim away from the water outside of their 99% margin of error - the way Ben Hogan described his strategy for the 11th at Augusta National - and that's how most players approach it now.  I suppose a lot of them have always done this . . . I remember vividly Ed Sneed telling Pete Dye how he thought the 13th at the TPC at Sawgrass was unfair, and Pete responding that was because players were too scared to play close to the water, and I can't recall Jack Nicklaus ever knocking it in the water on an important approach shot in the prime of his career.  So, you can build a hole like the 4th at Harbour Town, but you know exactly how the pros are going to play it, and it isn't very interesting to watch.

Do you think this carries for a 8-12 handicap player? I learnt the hard way on my course to shoot for the pin and forget about the water.  Worst case you dropped out lateral with 1 stroke penalty. Missing the green on the opposite side often resulted in water on my third shot, instead of the second shot....