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Jason Topp

  • Total Karma: 1
Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« on: January 28, 2019, 10:58:10 AM »
Over the last year Brandel Chamblee has frequently pointed out that driving distance has overshadowed driving accuracy on the PGA Tour.  His solution is a bigger penalty for missing the fairway.  In other words deeper rough.  For example, this is a recent tweet:

Reestablish a penalty for missing a FW, player’s will gravitated to a more cerebral game, not only from a philosophical standpoint but in the setups of their bags. I believe they will gravitate to spinnier golf balls/clubs w/ less MOI. Their swings will evolve w/ less jump/."

https://twitter.com/chambleebrandel/status/1088771961646469120

Torrey Pines strikes me as the ideal Chamblee course - narrow fairways and deep rough.  It was interesting to me that the leading players were generally long off the tee.  However, they also hit a lot of fairways suggesting accuracy off the tee was rewarded. 

I believe this approach is a disaster for architecture in general.  I suspect the retail golfer cannot even find a ball in that rough.  For a tour test, however, does it work?  Is Torrey a more interesting venue as a narrow course than it would be with wider fairways and shorter rough?

What would be the best comparison course?  Kapalua?  Scottsdale? Do those venues produce more interesting tournaments or more worthy tests?

I know I would rather play those other courses but I am not certain they produce more interesting tournaments.




David_Tepper

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 01:34:53 PM »
While the setup at Torrey Pines does not translate well for retail/recreational/social golf, if one judges a golf course by the tournament winners it produces, Torrey Pines could be one of the best courses for challenging the modern-day professionals.

The last 27 Farmers/Buick tournaments played at Torrey Pines have been won 20 times by players who have won at least one major tournament. Granted, Tiger winning the event 7 times distorts that figure.

Other winners of the tournament who have won at least one major are Phil Mickelson, Craig Stadler, Scott Simpson, Davis Love, Mark O'Meara, JM Olazabal, John Daly, Bubba Watson, Jason Day and now Justin Rose. That is a pretty impressive roster of winners. 
 

Kyle Harris

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2019, 01:37:10 PM »
Torrey 9 Brandel 7...


...oh, wrong thread.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Roman Schwarz

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2019, 01:49:54 PM »
What's so cerebral about this?


#1:  hit it between the fairway bunkers and onto the green rather than the left bunker or right bunker
#2:  hit it between the fairway bunkers and onto the green rather than the left bunker or right bunker
#3:  par 3 over a front bunker
#4:  hit it between the <replace left bunker with cliff and ocean view> and right bunker.  Delete right green bunker for variety.
#5:  hit it between the fairway bunkers and onto the green rather than the left bunker or right bunker


I think you get the point.  I've never played the course so I could be wrong, but it's not on my bucket list.  Could we even get a gentle dogleg or angled approach in the first 5 holes?To save people time, here's the hole-by-hole.  https://www.torreypines.com/torrey-pines-south-course/hole1/

Contrast hole #4 vs. the 2nd hole at Talking Stick O'odham.  Why on earth does the green bunkering not encourage you to hit at the cliff?  How about Pacific Dunes #4 or #13?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 01:51:53 PM by Roman Schwarz »

Pete Lavallee

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2019, 06:39:41 PM »
Sadly this is where we are in an attempt to test Tour Pros. I played the South a month ago when they were in the grow phase; dump fertilizer, hope for rain and get deep lush rough. We were blessed with over 6” of rain so far this year and we got a bumper crop! Nothing is more disparaging than searching for your playing partners balls in deep wet rough well over the 3” that they crop it to just before the Tournament begins. Normal humans are challenged to play anything more than an 8 it on out of that stuff, which means you have little chance to reach the green in regulation. And yet the winner was -21! Granted a round on the North Course lowers the bar somewhat but the rough there is just as brutal and that course is possibly narrower.


Don’t forget we are auditioning for the 2021 Open, so how does the USGA bring the winning score down by 20 shots! Lowering rough or expanding fairways won’t do it. At 7,600 yards with pins set on seemingly the edge of the earth doesn’t do it, what will?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2019, 07:11:44 PM »
While the setup at Torrey Pines does not translate well for retail/recreational/social golf, if one judges a golf course by the tournament winners it produces, Torrey Pines could be one of the best courses for challenging the modern-day professionals.


[/size]David, i agree... and also find it interesting that Keegan Bradley and Justin Rose tied at -20 at the BMW at Aronimink back in Sept. Rose won this week at -21 (albeit w/ 1 rd on North course). To me it shows that it doesn't matter where these guys play, they just play a different game... wide or narrow fairways IMHO[/size] we'd all choose to play a post-Hanse Aronimink [/size](access, weather, and ocean views not withstanding) to a Rees Jones TP South, and think the general "retail" golfer would also appreciate it.

Eric LeFante

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2019, 12:53:58 AM »
Retail golf is about average golfers enjoying themselves in a reasonable amount of time. Tournament golf for the best in the world is completely different.


I think courses can be too wide and the penalty not severe enough for the pros. I don't think it's fair to the straight hitters to have wide fairways and short rough. Tournament golf is about testing players to see whose game is the best that week; 50 yard wide fairways with short rough doesn't test a critical part of the game.


There was a great thread about the 17th hole at Augusta recently. Some say its a boring hole because it's tight off the tee and there are no options but to hit it long or straight or be in the trees. I understand their point, but this hole originally had a 100 yard wide fairway and no greenside bunkers. Is that a good test of championship golf? Letting players hit it absolutely anywhere and still be in the fairway? I know the pin location dictates where you want to hit your tee shot, but if you miss your targets by 30 yards, there is not enough of a penalty (and not enough of a reward for hitting a good tee shot).


Players' game plans are quite different now than 20 years ago; Tiger was a lot like Jack and hit a variety of clubs off the tee depending on where the trouble was on a hole. Guys now in PGA Tour events hit driver everywhere, partly because there isn't a penalty for missing fairways, and partly because drivers are so forgiving now. I liked watching tiger hit a draw with a 3 wood or a stinger 2 iron. I don't like guys bombing driver on every hole and having a short iron in for their second shot.

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2019, 01:04:01 AM »
In reference to TP and their winning score, I'd want to look at the field average for those who made the cut as opposed to just the winning score.  This would be a better feel for how the course played that week, as opposed to the best handful of players being "on" that week.  If the best players are on they will tear up just about anything so IMO looking at the field average that made the cut is more comparable.  Like when Tiger won back in 2000 by 15 shots at Pebble he was the only one under par and obliterated the field.  This is where the course was playing very difficult you just had a God like effort by Woods.  Heck 4 players tied for 8th, but were 19 shots behind Woods!  yes that is almost 5 shots PER ROUND he was better than them and they had a US Open Top Ten finish.

"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Terry Lavin

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2019, 08:07:35 AM »
What's so cerebral about this?


#1:  hit it between the fairway bunkers and onto the green rather than the left bunker or right bunker
#2:  hit it between the fairway bunkers and onto the green rather than the left bunker or right bunker
#3:  par 3 over a front bunker
#4:  hit it between the <replace left bunker with cliff and ocean view> and right bunker.  Delete right green bunker for variety.
#5:  hit it between the fairway bunkers and onto the green rather than the left bunker or right bunker


I think you get the point.  I've never played the course so I could be wrong, but it's not on my bucket list.  Could we even get a gentle dogleg or angled approach in the first 5 holes?To save people time, here's the hole-by-hole.  https://www.torreypines.com/torrey-pines-south-course/


You’re not wrong. I’ve played it and I am singularly unimpressed.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2019, 08:31:47 AM »
I don't think it's fair to the straight hitters to have wide fairways and short rough. Tournament golf is about testing players to see whose game is the best that week; 50 yard wide fairways with short rough doesn't test a critical part of the game.
I reject that for the game to be "fair" short hitters have to have a good chance to play well. Is Harbour Town unfair because players all bunt the ball to the corners of tiny fairways surrounded by trees equally as "unfair" because it doesn't reward a different segment of golfers very much?

Different setups test different things. The ability to hit the ball far is a skill - speed is a skill in almost every sport (in fact it may be a defining characteristic that separates sports from games, in the opinions of some).

Now, while I fully agree that if you got to a point where you had five-yard wide fairways and unplayable rough on both sides, you'd be testing luck far more than skill, but on any reasonable range of setups, you're testing the abilities of the golfers within a pretty narrow range to "play golf."

The idea that we need to "help" short hitters is bogus and never really flies anyway, because the difference between long hitters and short hitters isn't going to do much. Phil Mickelson, I think, pointed this out at U.S. Opens, thought for years to be better for short hitters because of the penal rough, but Phil said something like "hey, at the U.S. Open, everyone's gonna miss fairways now and then, so I think the higher speed players have an advantage because when they miss, they're not only closer to the green but they're able to swing faster to get the ball out too."

In 2018 on the PGA Tour, the 10th most accurate driver hit 69.91% of his fairways while the tenth least accurate hit 53.58. Let's suppose the less accurate of those players is 25 yards longer than the accurate one… the accurate one hits 9.78 fairways per round out of 14, while the longer one hits 7.5. That's only two fairways per round where they're playing from further back, and I chose pretty extreme accuracy numbers… while on the other 11+ fairways per round they're 25 yards ahead and in the same condition (fairway or rough) as the short/accurate hitter.

So you can dislike courses that favor longer hitters, but it's still golf, and the ability to hit the ball far with accuracy is a golf skill. It's just one that you perhaps think is rewarded too often or something.

Guys now in PGA Tour events hit driver everywhere, partly because there isn't a penalty for missing fairways
That's not true:
https://thesandtrap.com/gallery/image/41-strokes-gained-table-5-2/

From 180 yards out in the fairway, PGA Tour players average 3.08. You have to go all the way up to about 120 yards out in the rough to find their scoring is about the same. The rough presents a 60-70 yard disadvantage over being in the fairway.

It's just that the math like I showed above works out in their favor: the "inaccurate" guys are only missing 1-2 more fairways than the "accurate" guys, but on every fairway they're 20+ yards closer to the hole (or whatever), and often have another club less in because they hit their 8I as far as the accurate (slow) guy hits his 7I.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 08:33:41 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Steve Kline

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 08:57:09 AM »
Watching this week's tournament at TP, I felt like I was a watching a contest of the best driving range player. That seems to be what happens with really narrow fairways, thick rough and a soft course. Thick rough doesn't seem to be a problem if the course is soft. The course seems to require very little scrambling/recovery and very little creativity. In the end, pretty boring - not because of the score, but because of the type of golf.

Tim Gavrich

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2019, 10:48:10 AM »
What would the ideal PGA Tour event look like in terms of winning score, distribution of non-winning scores, televised play? Which PGA Tour events in the last decade or so have come closest to the ideal?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 03:37:35 PM by Tim Gavrich »
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Steve Kline

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2019, 12:57:55 PM »
In 2018, the entire PGA Tour average 4.64 on all the par 5s played. Basically, there are no par 5s for tour players. There are only really difficult par 4s.


TP had 4 par 5s. Take the above into account, make them all par 4s, and Rose shot -5.


-21 or -5? It's meaningless. It was a boring tournament to watch.


I don't care what the winning score is. The only reason any of us watch golf is for entertainment. A tournament can be fascinating without much separation (last year's PGA had a number of guys in it for quite a while) or it can be fascinating with separation (Nicklaus and Watson or Mickleson or Stenson in the Open). I think the only thing that really matters for professional golf is does the course add to and create the entertainment.


For me, TP isn't it. The announcers kept mentioning the wall to wall green and the difficulty in determining the fairway from the rough for the players. It's almost as hard for the viewer. Every hole seems the same. No centerline hazards. Notinh to steer around. Nothing to make the players think or uncomfortable. Boring.


The courses that are the most exciting to watch?


They are familiar. The Tour goes their every year and you have history to compare to. They are memorable. The history adds pressure. The history brings the best players. There are compelling golf shots that have significant risk/reward (par becomes irrelevant really). Great scores can be made, but disaster can happen too.


The two courses that immediately come to my mind that make great viewing are Augusta and TPC Sawgrass. (But, I would add that the Open is my favorite tournament to watch (when they let nature take its course.))


That doesn't mean I think they are the two best courses in the world.




Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2019, 01:49:07 PM »
The most shocking thing to me about TP South isn't even the course.

Its that they can charge insane green fees, (non-resident - high 100s weekdays, low 200s on weekends).....and people are lining up to pay it. 

#Baffling

Steve Kline

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2019, 02:34:04 PM »
To your point Kalen, I was at the local muni driving range in Cincinnati this weekend and the two mid-20s guys next to me were talking about wanting to play TP. It's a U.S. Open course blah blah blah. One had played it and thought it was awesome.


I played it 30 years ago in the Junior World and it was a dog track. I played it several years after the U.S. Open and the conditioning was very good, but I did not enjoy the course any more. I can't imagine shelling out my own money to the play it.

Kevin Neary

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2019, 05:00:10 PM »
If driving accuracy doesn't matter, then why does fairway width?

Pete Lavallee

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2019, 08:29:45 PM »
Strangely enough the Torrey Pines Men’s Club members were allowed to get the City rate for many of the members who don’t have San Diego on their drivers liscense. This was abolished this year and as you might imagine those people have all left. You’re have to be insane to pay over $100 to play there when you live less than a half hour away? Our County residents who supported the course before it was truly famous are really getting the shaft! Even Balboa Park lost 30 players due to the out of City rate increase.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

jeffwarne

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Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2019, 11:24:59 PM »
Am I the only one who enjoys watching TP every year in the event?
I've never played it but I've been on the grounds several times and it is beautiful.


Bethpage and NGLA aren't so great in January.....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Pete Lavallee

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2019, 08:26:42 AM »
Well said Jeff.  Although Torrey Pines doesn’t have the architecture we all crave at GCA it does have an incredible sense of place. The Torrey Pine tree only grows here at the Preserve and at one of the Channel Islands off the coast of Santa Barbara. It’s 5 needle clusters all point to the ground to help dew collect and drip towards the roots. The cliffs aren’t perfect for fhrilling golf but it’s not a bad place to spend 4 hours.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2019, 08:39:33 AM »
I have spent quite a bit of time at Torrey Pines as I lived up in Murrieta for 7 years.  I played the courses pre reno and post.  Honestly the condition is never good IMO, as it is a muni and gets a ton of play.  I played it stupidly from around 7200 yards one time and shot over 100 as a 9 handicap at the time, for the approaches were just too long for me with a breeze. I really like the public muni vibe as well for guys line up to play it, although not anything near bethpage.

The area is great and views are really special, not to mention the weather is almost never hot and almost never cold. California has four places I'd love to live.  Coronado Island, Torrey Pines, Santa Barbara, and Monterrey.
Having said all this, I don't think it deserves to be the host of a regular tour event and US Open. California has enough Open venues IMO and Torrey has run it's course.  With LACC coming on, Olympic Club, Pebble Beach three is plenty and hope they can incorporate more midwestern Open venues as the PGA won't be stopping there with a May date moving forward.


"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jim Nugent

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2019, 09:18:53 AM »
The most shocking thing to me about TP South isn't even the course.

Its that they can charge insane green fees, (non-resident - high 100s weekdays, low 200s on weekends).....and people are lining up to pay it. 

#Baffling
I played Torrey South in 1970.  Before the renovations, but still the same basic course.  Paid $5 green fee, as a non-resident.  Didn't think it was great, but even now, 49 years later, remember around ten holes.  Did not feature thick, tall rough during my round, which was in March or April.     

Kyle Harris

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2019, 10:02:00 AM »
Am I the only one who enjoys watching TP every year in the event?
I've never played it but I've been on the grounds several times and it is beautiful.


Bethpage and NGLA aren't so great in January.....


No, I generally enjoy the TP event.

At least at Torrey Pines I don't get to experience the sense that someone absolutely butchered a great golf course like I get with Bethpage Black.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2019, 10:17:14 AM »
Am I the only one who enjoys watching TP every year in the event?
I've never played it but I've been on the grounds several times and it is beautiful.


Bethpage and NGLA aren't so great in January.....


No, I generally enjoy the TP event.

At least at Torrey Pines I don't get to experience the sense that someone absolutely butchered a great golf course like I get with Bethpage Black.


Bingo
and a view
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2019, 11:33:35 AM »
Jeff,

I can see your point here, no doubt TP has lots of eye candy when watching on TV. And Gary McCord no doubt getting a stiffy when describing the surrounding area/views can be compelling, but I'd much rather look at interesting architecture with no views as opposed to visa versa, but i'm probably in the minority on that one..

Philip Hensley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Torrey Pines and Brandel Chamblee
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2019, 11:18:41 AM »
Isn't demanding narrower fairways and higher rough an absolute admission that the course requires no strategy or thought, since the play is to hit it down the middle each time?


When someone says something along the lines of "well I want width for retail golfers but pros should have narrower fairways to test their higher skill", they're admitting that they don't want the pros tested by using strategy.


And when you say you want pros "punished" for missing fairways, where do you determine where the new, narrower fairway is? If the hole is designed to tempt players to go to the left side of the fairway to get a better angle, but now you eliminated the portion of the fairway by growing it up with rough, how did you test players of higher skill by mowing a bowling alley fairway 20 yards to the right of Position A? You've now reduced the tournament to a test of driving range skills, to see who hits the ball the purest.