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John Kavanaugh

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2019, 08:35:07 AM »
Back on the stool between rounds wondering why. I played 99 holes at Harbour Town last week and Ballyneal is one of my favorite courses in the world. So why not? Wipe my browel with the towel and continue on. As I have mentioned earlier today we will be staging the first two par 3's of each course up against each other. Some background that may help you understand where I personally am coming from. During our four day tournament we offered $100 prize for each closest to the pin on the 16 par 3's played. It was an eight man Major outing and I came away with 5 wins. In other words, I think par 3's are the most oversimplified example of architecture as practiced today. You put the ball on a tee, with a level lie and whack a stationary ball at a non moving target. Why even bother half the time.


Including the non-tournament rounds we played the 4th at HT at 165, 165, 155, 155, 165 and 187 yds. Ran has the 3rd at Ballyneal at 145 yds. Ran has an excellent description of the hole in his review that I would recommend reading. One aspect of the 4th at HT that I just realized today is that the hole is the mirror image of the 14th. I think that is really cute but also interesting because I found the water on 14 but not on the 4th. My scared guided miss always seems to be right. And 14 is of course later in the round. I did however get CTP's on both holes.


Only because of my personal preferences I prefer the first par 3 at HT over the 3rd at Ballyneal because of the penal nature of the water hazard. The pin was always left flirting with the water so the smart play was taking the water out of play and carding a par. The 3rd at Ballyneal is what I would call postcard architecture.


Round 3, 1st Par 3's HT 9 Ballyneal 7


Recap:
Hole 1 Round 1 HT 10 Ballyneal 9

Hole 2, Round 2 HT   9 Ballyneal 10
Hole 3 Round 3 HT 9  Ballyneal 7

Just cause I love pain I would love to share this photo tour of Harbour Town.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60589.msg1435892.html#msg1435892
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 08:37:52 AM by John Kavanaugh »

John Kavanaugh

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #76 on: January 30, 2019, 08:39:50 AM »
Dye had to create everything as he had hardly no natural features. Doak had to find his course.I would have loved to see what Dye would have done with a property like Ballyneal. Unfortunately, he never got to work on a property as good as that. Unfortunately for Dye, he designed courses in an era where good land wasn't as valued as today.


Matt:


I don't think you will successfully claim that you are a bigger fan of Pete Dye than I am.  Maybe you love his courses more, but I spent a fair amount of time with him, and I still remember pretty much everything he ever said to me.  I owe him my entire career.


Mr. Dye was still designing courses until about three years ago, so we weren't entirely in different eras.  One of my observations from working for him is that he had handicapped himself, by doing the projects he had done, and popularizing the idea that he could take a swamp or a flat desert and turn it into a great course.  It put him at the top of the list of designers to call if you didn't have a good piece of land, but . . . it meant that when Dick Youngscap [who had already worked with Pete at Firethorn] or Mike Keiser started thinking about what designer to hire for their projects on great land, they thought others would be better for that kind of ground.


So, I tried really hard to establish a different niche for myself, and it wound up working far beyond my expectations.


I would have loved to see what Pete would have done with a piece of land in the Sand Hills, as a thought exercise . . . I don't think he would have bulldozed the land, as some people think.  But, if it was my money at stake as a developer, I wouldn't have bet that he would have built something better than Sand Hills or Ballyneal, and he surely couldn't have built them for any less than the budgets they were built for.  And there is a lot of land left out there in the sand hills, so if it's really that easy, other architects should go out and build their own top-50 course instead of complaining about our success.


Working on flat land is undoubtedly harder.  But what's the point of trying to give brownie points for that?  This thread is about comparing courses, not comparing architects, right?  The only reason to compare two courses is to decide where you want to go play.  Do you make those decisions based on the course that's on the ground today, or what we started with?


I didn't want anyone to miss this post that got stuck on the last page. Thanks Tom.

John Kirk

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #77 on: January 30, 2019, 09:19:31 AM »
...getting drawn in.  Just sending along encouragement.

Comparing two very different courses has the potential for great discussion.  The comments intent on discouraging the comparison, and derailing the conversation, are very disappointing.  There are lots of people here who have played Ballyneal; they can fill in the details of how to play BN, and what to look for.  You've had the rare opportunity to play a top resort course multiple times, and sharing your observations about Harbour Town are valuable insight that few if any here can offer.  A few years ago, I played Pebble Beach three times in a week.  It was terrific fun.

To my friends in the Midwest, be safe and warm these coming few days.

The other, earnest JK 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 09:21:22 AM by John Kirk »

John Kavanaugh

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #78 on: January 30, 2019, 09:24:33 AM »
This thread is about comparing courses, not comparing architects, right?  The only reason to compare two courses is to decide where you want to go play.  Do you make those decisions based on the course that's on the ground today, or what we started with?


Tom,


The idea that this comparison is about where one should chose to play seems to be a common misperception. I've never played Pebble Beach. That really makes no sense if I base where I want to play on the architecture.


Now that I'm older I tend to play where I am, not where I wish I could be. Harbour Town is a $360 first class ticket to an airport 8 miles from the first tee away. Ballyneal is in a past world that I doubt I will ever visit again. The quality of the courses have zero bearing on which I will play next year.

John Kirk,


Come on, I really could use your opinions. I was thinking today how much different this thread would be if I had played 99 holes at Ballyneal last week.



John Kirk

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #79 on: January 30, 2019, 09:51:03 AM »
Let me think about it for a couple days.  I enjoy this sort of thing, but have grown hypersensitive to comments that intend to discourage or derail frank commentary.

It would be nice if others would contribute.

I consider the 3rd at Ballyneal the least interesting hole to play, partly because it's a par 3, but also because it's easy to make par, birdie is difficult, and if you make bogey, you screwed up.  Now that our greens are maintained at a faster speed, this hole has a little more bite than it used to.  If the pin is in the back half, you really don't want to miss short, because the first putt will be tough.

Compared to your description of HT #4, BN #3 strategy is more dependent on hole location, as opposed to the constant threat of the HT #4 water hazard, which will be the primary concern every time.  When the pin is on the right side, I'll try to hit my one yard high fade, because it will land soft and not roll much.  Very hard to make birdie on right pins.  If the pin is front left, you must try to hit it in the front left bowl, which often yields a short putt for birdie.  If the pin is back left, coming up short in the front left bowl results in a 3 putt bogey.

The green sits on a natural bowl, and is perhaps the easiest green to hit in regulation on the course.  It's always a short iron shot, usually a 9 iron or pitching wedge for me.

Ben Littman's description of Harbour Town is a fine summary:

"A lot has been written about Harbour Town, so I'll keep my comments to a minimum. I was shocked at how wide the course is (it was also much greener/better-conditioned than the other courses we played, but I chalk that up to preparation for the Tour event). People have said that the narrow view from the tee down the 1st fairway is a harbinger of things to come, but I actually thought the opposite: the 1st fairway is by far the narrowest on the course (and it's not actually that narrow, as the trees give way to open spaces left and especially right after 175 yards or so). Every tee shot that follows feels much more open than the 1st one. (The two other tee shots I would classify as narrow--9 and 13--are rightly so, as they are short par-4s that require only an iron off the tee.) I typically hate road crossings and visible houses on courses, but neither--and there are many of both--bothered me at Harbour Town. In fact, I was surprised at how enchantingly beautiful the course is--the towering pines lining many fairways reminding me somewhat of what I see at Augusta on TV every year (minus, among other things, the elevation changes). I especially liked the tree-dotted waste areas on the corners of numerous fairways; they are not only pleasing to the eye, but playable. People say that the greens, though distinctively small, are flat and boring, but the green complexes as a whole (comprising the greens, their shapes, the surrounding bunkers, and, of course, the many overhanging trees) are some of the best in the world. The course's principal design features--u-shaped greens with intruding knobs/fringes and hidden bunkers--are very distinctive and very repetitive (for better or worse, I'm still not sure). To me, the course's tightness exists not off the tee but in the approaches to the greens, as many greens have either two low/wide trees or one tall/narrow tree guarding the front. Those green-guarding trees, and the u-shaped greens, are the course's main defenses to scoring--and what some people might deem unfair. But seeming unfairness on the first playing should yield to strategy on the second and subsequent playings, as those defenses simply ask the player to think and, as at any great course, optimize angles of attack. In no way did I feel that the course truly begins after the tee shot on 16 (16, to me, is overrated as a hole) or even back at 13 (though I concede that the stretch from 13-18 is the best on the course). The front nine is also a delight to play, with the stretch from 4-8 rivaling 13-18 for enjoyment and variety. In short, count me a fan and someone who can't wait to return and play Harbour Town many more times."

Tom_Doak

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #80 on: January 30, 2019, 10:38:34 AM »

Tom,

The idea that this comparison is about where one should chose to play seems to be a common misperception. I've never played Pebble Beach. That really makes no sense if I base where I want to play on the architecture.



John:


My comment was meant to steer the conversation back to comparing the two courses, instead of Matt K. opining which one was harder to design because of the land the two sit on.


But, since you've now told us what the thread is NOT about, can you be more specific about what it IS about?


Your comparison of the first par-3 holes makes it sound like for you it's about "shot values" as a GOLF DIGEST panelist would say.  You'll get no argument from me that the 4th at Harbour Town is HARDER than the 3rd at Ballyneal, because there's a water hazard smack up against the collar.  But if that's really your ultimate sign of quality, then you might as well just dismiss all my courses, because I have no interest in building a hole like that.  Any halfway smart player is just going to take the water out of play . . . the only tactics involved is understanding how far away from the water you personally have to aim to do that.  At least the hole at Ballyneal encourages you to look at the hole location before deciding where to aim.


P.S.  Isn't there a 10-point must system for boxing scoring?  Why 9-7 and not 10-8?

Dan Gallaway

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #81 on: January 30, 2019, 11:36:17 AM »
In two plays at Ballyneal.  Tee shot could be played to fight the wind, ride the wind, aim at the flag, play for the safe miss.  If I knew the hole better, I probably would have a few more options knowing where the proper rolls would come from.  I missed  long once and short right the other.  My eventual par putts were read completely opposite by my caddie and me.  I tried both his read and mine.  That's a great hole!  I could sit on the tee box with a cooler and just try different shots.  Give me a bottle of bourbon and ice cubes and I could putt all evening. 


Looking at #4 at HT, I would miss to the chipping area 9 times out of 10 and have the chip/putt that was dictated by Mr. Dye as my recovery.

Stephen Davis

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #82 on: January 30, 2019, 12:32:11 PM »
John,


I am following this thread with interest. I have not participated because I am an unrepentant Ballyneal homer, as you well know. I really loved playing Harbour Town and can see why it has such a vaulted position in the history of the game, but I am not sure I can impartially judge the two courses, so much is my love for Ballyneal. John Kirk is much better at being impartial than I am. I will be following along though, and as a side note, I can definitely understand your mixing Hole 2 up with a par 5. As you said, it is 495 yards. I know you likely played the tips on most, if not all holes, and it is a big hole from back there, especially if it is into the wind.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #83 on: January 30, 2019, 01:20:36 PM »
Can't add a single thought, save to say that by the first post I was already hopeful a terrific thread would follow, in this context:

The commonalities in playing experiences at two distinct golf course designs separated in time by some 4 decades and in space by strikingly disparate topographies and in ethos (and here's the rub -- at least apparently) by the gulf between pre-renaissance & post renaissance philosophies; and then the subsequent questions: are these commonalities surprising or instead are they inevitable (in quality architecture)? And, in either case, do even sophisticated golfers have the eyes to see them and game enough to actually experience these commonalities in the playing?


   
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 01:25:41 PM by Peter Pallotta »

John Kavanaugh

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #84 on: January 30, 2019, 03:36:30 PM »

Tom,

The idea that this comparison is about where one should chose to play seems to be a common misperception. I've never played Pebble Beach. That really makes no sense if I base where I want to play on the architecture.





John:


My comment was meant to steer the conversation back to comparing the two courses, instead of Matt K. opining which one was harder to design because of the land the two sit on.


But, since you've now told us what the thread is NOT about, can you be more specific about what it IS about?


Your comparison of the first par-3 holes makes it sound like for you it's about "shot values" as a GOLF DIGEST panelist would say.  You'll get no argument from me that the 4th at Harbour Town is HARDER than the 3rd at Ballyneal, because there's a water hazard smack up against the collar.  But if that's really your ultimate sign of quality, then you might as well just dismiss all my courses, because I have no interest in building a hole like that.  Any halfway smart player is just going to take the water out of play . . . the only tactics involved is understanding how far away from the water you personally have to aim to do that.  At least the hole at Ballyneal encourages you to look at the hole location before deciding where to aim.


P.S.  Isn't there a 10-point must system for boxing scoring?  Why 9-7 and not 10-8?


Tom,


From what I understand the 10 point must system is somewhat modern. Even so if the referee or me calls a foul a round can 9-7.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_boxing


I didn't care for Harbour Town all that much after one play last year and fell in love with it during extended play this year. This thread is a discovery for me why and how that happens compared to a Ballyneal that I fell in love with at first sight.


Don't tell me that you don't build penal par 3's. That long ass hole at Dismal Red is one of the most difficult I have ever played. As far as Digest goes I know exactly what "shot values" are and they do go a long way on what I love about some courses. As you may imagine, I know a ton of things that I don't have the ability to explain. Speaking of that my memory of the 3rd hole at Ballyneal is a feeling of relief as I approached the tee. But that goes into routing.


Please don't think it is my intention to declare that the pin position at the 4th at HT was not important. Remember, we played from 155 to 187 yds. I can pin hunt with a 7 iron and stop the ball before it finds the water behind the green. Not so much with a 5 wood from 187. Guys like me make a living because most golfers are stupid. I'm surprised you give credit to the halfway smart ones. I won one of my CTP's from 28 ft. most likely because I was the only one to play away from the pin.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #85 on: January 30, 2019, 03:47:01 PM »
In two plays at Ballyneal.  Tee shot could be played to fight the wind, ride the wind, aim at the flag, play for the safe miss.  If I knew the hole better, I probably would have a few more options knowing where the proper rolls would come from.  I missed  long once and short right the other.  My eventual par putts were read completely opposite by my caddie and me.  I tried both his read and mine.  That's a great hole!  I could sit on the tee box with a cooler and just try different shots.  Give me a bottle of bourbon and ice cubes and I could putt all evening. 


Looking at #4 at HT, I would miss to the chipping area 9 times out of 10 and have the chip/putt that was dictated by Mr. Dye as my recovery.


Dan,


Is the 3rd at Ballyneal a better design than any of the holes on the Mulligan? At HT I putted just about every shot within 50 yds of the green where I was not faced by a forced carry. I don't think that you want to sell Dye short on short game options. He invented the genre.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #86 on: January 30, 2019, 03:52:39 PM »
John,


I am following this thread with interest. I have not participated because I am an unrepentant Ballyneal homer, as you well know. I really loved playing Harbour Town and can see why it has such a vaulted position in the history of the game, but I am not sure I can impartially judge the two courses, so much is my love for Ballyneal. John Kirk is much better at being impartial than I am. I will be following along though, and as a side note, I can definitely understand your mixing Hole 2 up with a par 5. As you said, it is 495 yards. I know you likely played the tips on most, if not all holes, and it is a big hole from back there, especially if it is into the wind.


Stephen,


Thanks. This thread can only be improved with the opinions of more OG's like you. Ballyneal is so much more than I can describe through my faded memories.

Stephen Davis

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #87 on: January 30, 2019, 04:17:26 PM »
In two plays at Ballyneal.  Tee shot could be played to fight the wind, ride the wind, aim at the flag, play for the safe miss.  If I knew the hole better, I probably would have a few more options knowing where the proper rolls would come from.  I missed  long once and short right the other.  My eventual par putts were read completely opposite by my caddie and me.  I tried both his read and mine.  That's a great hole!  I could sit on the tee box with a cooler and just try different shots.  Give me a bottle of bourbon and ice cubes and I could putt all evening. 


Looking at #4 at HT, I would miss to the chipping area 9 times out of 10 and have the chip/putt that was dictated by Mr. Dye as my recovery.


Dan,


Is the 3rd at Ballyneal a better design than any of the holes on the Mulligan? At HT I putted just about every shot within 50 yds of the green where I was not faced by a forced carry. I don't think that you want to sell Dye short on short game options. He invented the genre.


I can't speak for Dan, but I have always felt that the 3rd at Ballyneal is the one par 3 on the main course that best encompasses the ethos of the Mulligan Course. Not only in that they are related in length, but it is fun and imaginative and wild, just like so many of the greens on the Mulligan Course are. I wouldn't say that it is better or worse than any of them, but that it is the spirit animal of the holes on the Mulligan.

Matt Kardash

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #88 on: January 30, 2019, 11:29:34 PM »
Dye had to create everything as he had hardly no natural features. Doak had to find his course.I would have loved to see what Dye would have done with a property like Ballyneal. Unfortunately, he never got to work on a property as good as that. Unfortunately for Dye, he designed courses in an era where good land wasn't as valued as today.


Matt:


I don't think you will successfully claim that you are a bigger fan of Pete Dye than I am.  Maybe you love his courses more, but I spent a fair amount of time with him, and I still remember pretty much everything he ever said to me.  I owe him my entire career.


Mr. Dye was still designing courses until about three years ago, so we weren't entirely in different eras.  One of my observations from working for him is that he had handicapped himself, by doing the projects he had done, and popularizing the idea that he could take a swamp or a flat desert and turn it into a great course.  It put him at the top of the list of designers to call if you didn't have a good piece of land, but . . . it meant that when Dick Youngscap [who had already worked with Pete at Firethorn] or Mike Keiser started thinking about what designer to hire for their projects on great land, they thought others would be better for that kind of ground.


So, I tried really hard to establish a different niche for myself, and it wound up working far beyond my expectations.


I would have loved to see what Pete would have done with a piece of land in the Sand Hills, as a thought exercise . . . I don't think he would have bulldozed the land, as some people think.  But, if it was my money at stake as a developer, I wouldn't have bet that he would have built something better than Sand Hills or Ballyneal, and he surely couldn't have built them for any less than the budgets they were built for.  And there is a lot of land left out there in the sand hills, so if it's really that easy, other architects should go out and build their own top-50 course instead of complaining about our success.


Working on flat land is undoubtedly harder.  But what's the point of trying to give brownie points for that?  This thread is about comparing courses, not comparing architects, right?  The only reason to compare two courses is to decide where you want to go play.  Do you make those decisions based on the course that's on the ground today, or what we started with?
Tom, where did I say I was a bigger fan of Dye than you? I am not picking favourites in this thread. I am just saying that to compare these courses in this exercise seems weird to me. I don't think anyone would ever pick HT in this fight. No need to feel insecure  :P
 I never said it was easy to build a great course on great land. But I think great land has great potential. I think you and Dye both got the most (or close to it) out of your properties...just one of those properties was way better...therefore, the course is better. I don't think I am saying anything profound or controversial here. Everyone please carry on, ignore me!
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 11:33:22 PM by matt kardash »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

John Kavanaugh

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2019, 09:12:07 AM »
A view from the stool after round 3 is a treat as the circus outside the ring is starting to develop. If you have ever been fortunate enough to attend a great fight the action outside the ring is often the real show. What a great thread about water abutting a green, thanks everyone. Even Tommy N is contributing in his own way in what I can only assume was a classic troll. Could end up being one of the greats.


Today, being the 4th round and all, we have the 4th at Ballyneal vs the 5th at HT. Ran has given the yardage of the 4th at 560/465 yds. We played the 5th at HT at 497, 497, 485, 485, 427 and 511 yds. From what I understand the 4th at BN is played from an elevated tee which would make the yardages almost identical.


I'm going to need some help with BN on this one because as soon as I saw the picture of the 4th on Ran's review I can not separate the hole from Tom's 12th at Dismal River Red. I have great feelings about the hole, seem to recall hitting one of the longest drives of my life with a good friends persimmon driver. Honestly, why didn't Taylor Made put the screws on the new M6 in the center of the club face. Used to love hitting one on the screws.


The 5th at HT has so many great details I reference you to photo tour below. This Litman dude does some great work.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60589.msg1435892.html#msg1435892


I think I started out the week failing to draw the ball over the left bunker and ended the week thanking the right bunker for catching my ball before it left the course. The 5th at HT is the only hole I birdied twice in the week. I never experienced the donut bunker but watched many who did. Almost any hole that you play from 427 yds to 511 yds in the same week is going to have stories.


Could someone please give me some insight into the 4th at BN before I fill out my card? Thank you.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 09:14:00 AM by John Kavanaugh »

John Kirk

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2019, 11:41:40 AM »
It's not that I can't help by filling in details about Ballyneal for the thread.  I just don't want to be recruited into providing them on every hole, as I have something else I'm working on, and I find it harder these days to devote a great deal of energy to writing.

The 4th hole has three primary tee boxes, about 560, 545 and 475 yards.  Among the groups I typically play in, the 545 box is most commonly used, and from that box my chances to "go for the green in two" are now pretty rare.  The tee shot is significantly downhill, the biggest downhill slope on the course, so the 475 box is definitely a reachable par 5 for many players.  The 560 box sits just 25 or so yards left of the 545 box, but the angle of the tee shot is changed enough to make it one of the most difficult tee shots, with a prohibitively long carry for most players.  From the two back tee boxes, a common mistake is to aim too far left and pull the drive into the native.  I'd estimate 10-20% of drives end up in the native, but if solidly struck, 80-90% are found and playable.

The fairway is undulating with relatively long amplitude rolls, slightly uphill for the second shot, and then steeply uphill for the last 30-40 yards to the green.  There's a massive bunker complex on the right side of the fairway which defends attempts to aim second shots towards the right half of the fairway.  There is some value aiming your second shot to one side for certain hole locations, especially to the left for short right pins, and right for the middle left pin.  Wedged third shot approaches that come up short might roll backward 20-30 yards off the green.

If you do go for the green in two, you can scoot the ball up the slope onto the green with a properly heeled fairway wood shot.  The front right greenside bunker is deep, and it's easy to compound problems by misjudging the bunker shot, usually taking too much sand, only to see the ball roll back behind you in the fairway.

The green is large and varied.  Downhill putts to front pins are treacherous in fast conditions.  Shots played right of the green will trickle down to middle right pins.  The contours on this green are somewhat tame.

A complex hole with a fair amount of decision making available.  The penalties for trying for the green in two shots tend not to discourage the golfer.  I would rather lay up to 90-110 yards rather than face a 40-60 yard shot up the steep hill.  Most times I play this hole in a boring fashion: get the drive out there, long iron or fairway wood to the left (safe) side of the fairway, and then let the wedges do the talking.  It's a successful strategy.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #91 on: January 31, 2019, 12:46:43 PM »
Thanks John, I had a chance to do some additional research about the 4th and was reminded of a few outstanding features. Namely the beautiful hidden bunker that would lead you to believe the routing was reversed. I had remembered the bunker but not exactly on which hole it was replaced. You also can't discount the value of a good ole fashioned reveal. From what I understand, from the 4th tee you get a first real chance to soak in all the flavors the chop hills can offer in a sensory overload often reserved for Sand Hills. It's an important moment in the Ballyneal experience. Then and probably most importantly comes the reveal of the 7th green to break the tranquility of one of the finest strolls in golf. Who needs to see an architects abode along side a fairway when with the same turn of your neck you can see ones life flash before your eyes. Pasa got nothing on this.


Funny thing about par 5's early in a round. You can't win a tournament on one but you can lose it. I don't think either BN or HT should lose this fight on these great par 5's. First draw of the match. 10-10.


Recap:


Hole 1 Round 1 HT 10 Ballyneal 9
Hole 2, Round 2 HT   9 Ballyneal 10
Hole 3 Round 3 HT 9  Ballyneal 7
Hole 4 Round 4 HT 10 Ballyneal 10



OK, I've just been informed that the hidden bunker is not on the 4th hole at Ballyneal. My mistake, my card remains the same. Any help please?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 12:54:02 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Kalen Braley

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #92 on: January 31, 2019, 01:07:13 PM »
Barney,

The latest aerial on Google Maps certainly shows one, but I had certainly forgot it was there. Given you are looking up to that green from the fairway, I would think its "hidden" from that viewpoint...

P.S.  If you look closely, it shows it would certainly be in play for the pin that day!

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ballyneal+Golf+and+Hunt+Club/@40.4236297,-102.2789122,228m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8773ee2ef2ef3d1d:0x45c0ee9cf25d5d9e!8m2!3d40.4193971!4d-102.2627867
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 01:09:42 PM by Kalen Braley »

John Kirk

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #93 on: January 31, 2019, 01:10:44 PM »
There are a couple of "phony" bunkers on the front nine, little sand features that aren't actually in play.  I think there's one up near the 4th tee and one behind the 7th tee.  The hidden bunker, which can be seen after walking by, is on the 13th hole.  But it's not a very important feature with my game, with maybe 0-1 visits in 100+ plays.  If you have to lay up on #13, you stay away.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #94 on: January 31, 2019, 01:14:33 PM »
Thanks John, sorry to pull you back in with my mistake. Reveals play little in strategy but go along way to entice return visits. Doak doesn't give himself enough credit for his use of artistry in design. Strategy gets you fat, artistry makes you hungry.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #95 on: February 01, 2019, 09:23:11 AM »
Walking back to the stool after round 4 I notice a strange quiet has come over the stadium. Has someone pulled a fire alarm and not told the fighters? It's not uncommon to hear a chorus of boos after a round that was an obvious draw..but silence? Take a spit and move on to what may very well be the finest hole on the course.


Round 5 is our second match up between par 3's. The 5th at Ballyneal vs the 7th at HT. Ballyneal plays from approximately 165 yds with the ability for varying yardages depending on the mentos of your ethos. During our time at HT we played the 7th at 160, 160, 148, 148, 160 and 172 yds. The 7th at HT doesn't vary much within those yardages as you have to hit it high and just carry the front bunker. As a matter of fact all the fun in the hole is found when you miss the green. What are you going to do, miss the green on purpose?


As I implied above it is my opinion that the 5th hole at Ballyneal is the finest design on the course and also my favorite hole. The simplicity of the single front bunker amid somewhat contained views brings about a serenity rare in adult life. I can only compare it to when I was taking my licensing exam and one of 7 questions I had to answer was an example in my book I brought along. There is joy sometimes in being given the answer to a complicated question. Ballyneal 5th is a warm blanket of strategy in a cold storm. I love the hole.


Why am I in my corner and where is my stool, why is this man counting with his fingers in my face. HT is leading on the judges cards but everyone is on their feet as I'm getting fingers flashing in front of my 4...5...6...

Kalen Braley

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #96 on: February 01, 2019, 10:53:18 AM »
John,

Once again, i'm not following on the scoring system component.  You put hole 4 at 10-10.  Never in all my life of watching thousands of boxing and UFC rounds have I ever seen a round scored like this.

I can only imagine if it ever happened, both guys would be absolutely wailing on each other toe-to-toe for the entire round, (without a knockdown) and the judges decided they couldn't possibly not give a 10 to both guys.  If this did happen, the crowd would be on their feet, cheering wildly, and begging for more. 


Did you mean to score that 8-8?

John Kavanaugh

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #97 on: February 01, 2019, 11:24:39 AM »
...7...8.  Ding, ding, ding....Ballyneal wins by TKO!!!


In a twist of fate I'm asked what am I doing after the fight. I'm going to Disney World!


How about a game anytime this Sunday thru Tuesday? My contact information is easily available through this site and on MySpace.

John Kirk

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #98 on: February 01, 2019, 06:18:36 PM »
It occurred to me the left greenside bunker on Ballyneal's 5th hole acts strategically like a water hazard.  It is almost always a one shot penalty, and sometimes two shots, to hit it in the bunker when the hole is left.  On average, best to aim for the center of the green and take your chances for a two putt par.

Ballyneal may be the most dissected and discussed course on GCA over the last fifteen years.  Many people have tired of the subject.  There are other excellent modern courses that deserve the same careful analysis that Ballyneal has received, with a chance to begin new debates about daring or controversial features.

Speaking for myself, I would have liked to see a comparison between Harbour Town and Streamsong (Black), which I have not played, but I remember as one of your favorites in the past few years.

James Brown

Re: Harbour Town vs Ballyneal
« Reply #99 on: February 01, 2019, 07:00:17 PM »
James,


Why would the comparison between an early work of Dye against an early work of Doak not be a valid topic on a site about design?


I’m not saying it’s not a valid topic, I just disagree with the value of a comparison.  What is the practical value of a judgment that either is x amount better than the other? Both are really good examples of design on the land they worked with.  But I have a hard time drawing meaningful conclusions from comparing sites that are so different.  Ballyneal vs. Sand Hills?  Yes.  To me, that is like comparing a course in Dubai with one in Florida.  Both are warm climates but that’s where the similarities end.

I don’t draw much value out of the marginal differences in evaluation.  For me, golf architecture is very much about the best uses of a particular site, rather than comparing different canvas,  [/size][size=78%] [/size]

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