Harbour Town vs Ballyneal

[John Kavanaugh]

Why would anyone take a cart at Harbour Town? It is as walkable as any great course in the country and without question the most walkable course on tour.

[Tom_Doak]

John:


The 2nd hole at Ballyneal is a long par-4.  You must have played it into the wind!  After the semi-blind tee shot, it's a difficult approach past a bunker 25 yards short on the left, to a long plateau green with a shoulder pushing its way into the right middle.


The par-5's are the 4th, 8th, and 16th.  [I guess the 2nd as a par-5 would also have made for a logical progession!]

[Kalen Braley]

JK,

No disrespect here buddy, but maybe you need to take a trip back out to Ballyneal before you continue with this one. You forgot a lot of features on the 1st hole and thought #2 was a par 5...

P.S.  What i recall the most from #2 was if you didn't hit the speed slot on the fairway for the extra roll you're chances of getting on in reg were very slim.  But the green surrounds were interesting because you could hit a low running shot that would roll seemingly forever and onto the green.

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought par didn't matter to you guys. It's a 490 yd hole for God's sake.

[John Kavanaugh]

As a point of information I played the 2nd at Harbour Town from 471, 471, 424, 424, 383 and 495 yds in that order. I should apologize for calling either hole a par 5. My mistake on Ballyneal.

[John Kavanaugh]

One thing that fascinates me is how last year at The Heritage -12 was the winning score when the pros are playing a 502 par 5. You can click on anyones name and see what they scored on each hole for each round. Bryson DeChambeau made 8 on this hole in the third round. He made 3 in the second round. He lost the tournament by one shot. If you want to go deep you can even pull up the play-by-play.


https://www.pgatour.com/competition/2018/rbc-heritage/leaderboard.html

[Scott Szabo]

Uneven lies abound at the 2nd at Ballyneal, making for a difficult second shot unless your drive has found the bottom of the hill.  The bunker short and left of the green is a menace when trying to run a second shot onto the green.  There is also a substantial mound that carries into the putting surface a bit on the right, with the green typically feeding balls to the left.  Any pin on the right half of the green is very difficult to get to.

[Craig Sweet]

Personally, I find this post a ridiculous exercise. But then, I find course ranking a joke as well.


But I have an idea!  How about we have a contest comparing, and ranking on a scale of 1-10....head to head...body part by body part...Olivia Wilde v Charlize Theron?  We can find out who the real "10" is!
[/size][/color]
[/size]Lets start with legs!  I give this to Theron 10-7. Those long legs are awesome![/color]

[John Kavanaugh]

This is actually a difficult but legitimate exercise. To quote myself: "So we have a battle of infinite space against the intimacy of texture." I'm sorry that when you put infinity under a microscope it is not as compelling as when you first breath it in. There is something here at Harbour Town that took me multiple plays over a series of days to find and I was hoping to get some help along the way finding out why.

Why did Byrson DeChambeau, the anointed genius of golf, make so many doubles along the way to losing by a shot. Not to mention the crazy eight on a 502 yd par 5 that he just eagled the day before. Maybe Pete Dye knows a little something about architecture that is worth discovering.

I screwed up just like yesterday and as I will tomorrow. Upon further review I reserve my right to change my card for a hole on the given day that hole is under scrutiny. I like short par 5's more that long par 4's. I truly cherish every eagle putt as it may be my last.

Round 2, Hole 2 HT 9 Ballyneal 10

Recap:

Hole 1, Round 1 HT 10 Ballyneal 9
Hole 2, Round 2 HT   9 Ballyneal 10

[John Kavanaugh]

RIP Bunker. I just learned that Ballyneal's beloved cat Bunker is presumed dead. My heartfelt condolences. As a cat lover myself I can only assure you that kitty heaven doesn't have a wait list.

[Jon Cavalier]

Gonna miss that little guy.

[John Kavanaugh]

He was the goat. Got any pics of the hole?

[Jon Cavalier]

He was the goat. Got any pics of the hole?

Ballyneal No. 2

[John Kavanaugh]

From the above pictures I'm just not seeing it. I do not recall what appears to be a forced carry after the drive.

[Kalen Braley]

John,


Take a look at this aerial.  If you go all the way left on your drive you could have a partially forced carry, so its at least plausible.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Holyoke,+CO+80734/@40.4252374,-102.272834,480m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8773e253634e9fa7:0xf2414de1026d8857!8m2!3d40.5844369!4d-102.3024103

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,


Thank you as that map will be very useful in the future. Since I last played Ballyneal my go to shot from over 180 yds is the running ground fade. I'm surprised of the importance of keeping my drive right on this hole. I'm glad I gave it a 10.

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought I would post the following schedule of events for those people who may be getting bored and want to check in later for their favorite hole. As I indicated earlier Ballyneal has earned reigning champion status and will therefore be played 1-18. I will attempt to sequence the holes at Harbour Town in similar "weight classes". Thank you for your patience.


1/28 B1 vs HT1
1/29 B2 vs HT2
1/30 B3 vs HT4
1/31 B4 vs HT5
2/1   B5 vs HT7
2/2   B6 vs HT3
2/3   B7 vs HT9
2/4   B8 vs HT8
2/5   B9 vs HT6


Super Bowl Sunday is a fitting day for the 7th at Ballyneal vs the 9th at Harbour Town. Two of the finest short par 4's I have ever had the pleasure of playing. Spoiler alert: I may test out some theories on MySpace.

[James Brown]

I’ve played Harbortown and have contemplated a trip to Ballyneal but never have I debated a choice BETWEEN a trip a to Hilton Head and one to Ballyneal, that’s why I think this is a useless, if not uninteresting comparison. 

[John Kavanaugh]

James,


Why would the comparison between an early work of Dye against an early work of Doak not be a valid topic on a site about design?

[Matt Kardash]

James,


Why would the comparison between an early work of Dye against an early work of Doak not be a valid topic on a site about design?

Because one course is as flat as a pancake in a forest, while the other course has perhaps the ideal golf topography.Dye had to create everything as he had hardly no natural features. Doak had to find his course.I would have loved to see what Dye would have done with a property like Ballyneal. Unfortunately, he never got to work on a property as good as that. Unfortunately for Dye, he designed courses in an era where good land wasn't as valued as today.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's insulting to Doak to say that Ballyneal was easier to design than Harbour Town because of the land. Maybe you have a point, take Texas Tech...Please.

[James Brown]

James,


Why would the comparison between an early work of Dye against an early work of Doak not be a valid topic on a site about design?

Ok that point I understand and appreciate.  On that basis, wouldn’t a better comparison be Riverfront Golf Club.  Similar piece of land.  Similar region.  Somewhat similar business model.


Those are the factors I think make for a good comparison.  I think I understand your motive in comparing two architects doing a visibility design for the first time where their choices could be evaluated, but the land is so dissaimilar as to make the comparison less valuable. 


I would think Pacific Dunes vs. Kiawah Ocean would be better to feature similar situations. 

[Matt Kardash]

It's insulting to Doak to say that Ballyneal was easier to design than Harbour Town because of the land. Maybe you have a point, take Texas Tech...Please.

I don't think it is insulting. I think it is common sense that all things being equal, a better piece of land while yield a better course. I don't think Tom would ever believe he could design a better course in a swamp than he could at Ballyneal. The starting line of each course does not start at the same spot. At Ballyneal you start further down the line than at Harbour Town. You can still trip while running, but if you run a good race you will end up 1st, as expected.

[Matt Kardash]

James,


Why would the comparison between an early work of Dye against an early work of Doak not be a valid topic on a site about design?

I would think Pacific Dunes vs. Kiawah Ocean would be better to feature similar situations.

And even then, Pacific Dunes is the way better site. But sure, it's a way better comparison than Harbour Town!

[Tom_Doak]

Dye had to create everything as he had hardly no natural features. Doak had to find his course.I would have loved to see what Dye would have done with a property like Ballyneal. Unfortunately, he never got to work on a property as good as that. Unfortunately for Dye, he designed courses in an era where good land wasn't as valued as today.

Matt:


I don't think you will successfully claim that you are a bigger fan of Pete Dye than I am.  Maybe you love his courses more, but I spent a fair amount of time with him, and I still remember pretty much everything he ever said to me.  I owe him my entire career.


Mr. Dye was still designing courses until about three years ago, so we weren't entirely in different eras.  One of my observations from working for him is that he had handicapped himself, by doing the projects he had done, and popularizing the idea that he could take a swamp or a flat desert and turn it into a great course.  It put him at the top of the list of designers to call if you didn't have a good piece of land, but . . . it meant that when Dick Youngscap [who had already worked with Pete at Firethorn] or Mike Keiser started thinking about what designer to hire for their projects on great land, they thought others would be better for that kind of ground.


So, I tried really hard to establish a different niche for myself, and it wound up working far beyond my expectations.


I would have loved to see what Pete would have done with a piece of land in the Sand Hills, as a thought exercise . . . I don't think he would have bulldozed the land, as some people think.  But, if it was my money at stake as a developer, I wouldn't have bet that he would have built something better than Sand Hills or Ballyneal, and he surely couldn't have built them for any less than the budgets they were built for.  And there is a lot of land left out there in the sand hills, so if it's really that easy, other architects should go out and build their own top-50 course instead of complaining about our success.


Working on flat land is undoubtedly harder.  But what's the point of trying to give brownie points for that?  This thread is about comparing courses, not comparing architects, right?  The only reason to compare two courses is to decide where you want to go play.  Do you make those decisions based on the course that's on the ground today, or what we started with?