Harbour Town vs Ballyneal

[Sven Nilsen]

Both holes are 380 yd par 4's.

Right there you've already shown you missed the ethos of Ballyneal.

...or he just doesn't care for it in that context...

His loss.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sven,


What is gained architecturally on the first hole at Ballyneal by moving up beyond the approximate 380 yd range? When you leave the putting green and meet your caddies and or buddies shouldn't there be a general area where you congregate? If nothing else, for the safety of the other participants. I have found the ethos of Ballyneal to be more centered on camaraderie than tee markers.

[Craig Disher]

Sorry, I played CCC on this trip. Absolutely, go to Harbour Town. They compliment each other very well.

I think you mean complement -- in what ways? Very different courses each with a distinct ambience. Perhaps that's your point.

[John Kavanaugh]

Craig,


We spoke highly of you during our round. Congrats on such a fine course. Yes a sophisticated private course that does complement a national resort that hosts a televised event. It would probably surprise most people to learn that Harbour Town is much easier to score on than Chechessee. Though I would consider neither penal. Having only played Chechessee once as a paid observer during a celebrity death match I can't really speak to its architecture. But isn't that the way of all great courses?

[Tom_Doak]

John:


How many times have you played Ballyneal?


There is a distinct advantage for driving left at the first hole, because the green falls from back right to front left.  [It's a pretty significant slope; the last time I played there, someone at the back right of the green putted clear off the front and down into the hollow left of the greenside bunker.]  Drive it left and you're playing into the slope and can get at most pins pretty well, but it's particularly hard to drive it left from the back tee, diagonally over trouble.  Drive it right and you can't see the green very well, and even from right-center any shot moving right to left will likely get away from you.


I'm a fan of Harbour Town, which is the first great course I ever saw.  But if you're going to breeze over all of the above and just declare the other hole wins 10-8, this won't be very enlightening.

[Scott Szabo]

Hole 1.


Both holes are 380 yd par 4's. Both holes require a nice little drive to the right center of the fairway with death left. Ballyneal offers more width as HT requires a bit of precision or a hybrid off the tee. Both holes have equally interesting greens. I really enjoy the front to back nature of HT and have not had the pleasure of playing Ballyneal since the regrassing. Is round one a draw, I think not.

Right center is most certainly not the preferred tee shot at Ballyneal, as it doesn't take much to have a blind shot, or at a minimum, be faced with the knob in the right front of the green to deal with.  Also the right to left slope of the green, coupled with firm and fast conditions, will leave a much more difficult approach from anywhere right of center.  Much more to the hole than what one might think upon first glance.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,


I'm sure I have played a dozen or so rounds at Ballyneal but it has been a few years. I also recall either me or one of my playing partners putting off the first green. I need someone to remind me of the subtle features of the course. Without that I am basing my opinion of the holes at Ballyneal on Ran's review and my fading memories. Thanks.


I also didn't want to do Ballyneal a disservice by saying that it doesn't matter where you drive the ball. I believe the course is better than that.


Have you played Harbour Town since a storm removed a ton of trees? Over the five rounds I didn't have a single shot without a path to the green. I also recall less than a dozed shots off the pine straw. This is a personal thing for me but both courses play equally wide. Thus the scores on my card are mine and mine alone.

[Jon Cavalier]

I also would appreciate any photographic evidence available considering I forgot my camera at home in my drone box.

Sorry.  I couldn't help myself.





















































No photos of Harbour Town, sadly.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jon,


Beautiful. Are any of those of the first hole?

[John Kavanaugh]

Hole 1.


Both holes are 380 yd par 4's. Both holes require a nice little drive to the right center of the fairway with death left. Ballyneal offers more width as HT requires a bit of precision or a hybrid off the tee. Both holes have equally interesting greens. I really enjoy the front to back nature of HT and have not had the pleasure of playing Ballyneal since the regrassing. Is round one a draw, I think not.

Right center is most certainly not the preferred tee shot at Ballyneal, as it doesn't take much to have a blind shot, or at a minimum, be faced with the knob in the right front of the green to deal with.  Also the right to left slope of the green, coupled with firm and fast conditions, will leave a much more difficult approach from anywhere right of center.  Much more to the hole than what one might think upon first glance.

Scott,


Upon reviewing Ran's write up coupled with your excellent observation I stand corrected. Under further consideration I have no choice but to adjust my card.


Hole 1, round 1 HT 10 Ballyneal 9

[Jon Cavalier]

Jon,


Beautiful. Are any of those of the first hole?

At a quick glance, these are the best I have of the first.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jon,


Thanks. I intend on doing one hole per day. Your contribution would be invaluable.

[John Kavanaugh]

I was doing a little research on the upcoming rounds and noticed a flaw in this system. Starting the third day we would no longer be matching holes of similar par. But who would have thought, both courses are par 71 with two par 5's on the front and one on the back. Problem solved. Giving Ballyneal its rightful place as current champion we will continue the match based the fantastic routing provided by Tom Doak. Tomorrow we have the bout between two excellent par 5's and in the third round it will be Ballyneal's par three 3rd hole against HT's 4th. The remaining progression should be self explanatory.


Sleep well all my fellow HT lovers cause you got a tough fight tomorrow.

[Scott Szabo]

Never been to HT, and all I've seen are trees, trees and more trees.  The opposite of which we will find at BN.  I don't have the pictures like Jon does, but can certainly provide a bit of insight as to the nuances that might not be so noticeable upon first glance.  The bunkers are nasty, and you certainly don't want to miss long or right (as Jon's last picture will show).  Great starter hole that's probably more difficult than meets the eye.

[Jon Cavalier]

Jon,


Thanks. I intend on doing one hole per day. Your contribution would be invaluable.

Happy to help out with photos if I can keep up with the match.

[Tom_Doak]

I was doing a little research on the upcoming rounds and noticed a flaw in this system. Starting the third day we would no longer be matching holes of similar par. But who would have thought, both courses are par 71 with two par 5's on the front and one on the back. Problem solved. Giving Ballyneal its rightful place as current champion we will continue the match based the fantastic routing provided by Tom Doak. Tomorrow we have the bout between two excellent par 5's and in the third round it will be Ballyneal's par three 3rd hole against HT's 4th. The remaining progression should be self explanatory.

I'm glad you are doing it that way.  Comparing par-3 holes to par-5 holes is pretty weird, and if you stick to the numbers these two courses would require a lot of those comparisons.  However by doing it this way, you're going to be "off" with the numbers for most of the par-4's, which will also be weird.

[Matt MacIver]

John’s Rivera v Sand Hills thread was (to me) and all-timer, so I’m hopeful that folks who’ve played both will chime in.  I think it’s interesting and entertaining comparing two disparate courses.  I’ll state my bias: I liked HT but didn’t think it was a $250 course...why I can’t say.  I’m a wild driver of the ball but don’t think I ever hit it OB, but did find some hazards.  I did (and do) love the idea of hitting if off-center and being stuck playing a low slinging hook/slice around a big tree to a small green - I love recover shots.  I just love putting more...

[John Kirk]

I'm going to sit this one out.  Plus, I haven't played Harbour Town. 

I enjoy the challenges that a narrow, tree-lined course offers.  On a windy, firm course like Ballyneal, one is compelled to alter the trajectory and curvature of shots to combat the wind.  But a tree-lined course also dictates that a player curve the ball, and sometimes increase or decrease the trajectory of a shot, in order to miss the trees.  Successfully pulling off a shot which avoids the trees and advances the ball can be very rewarding.
I will follow along.

[Jerry Kluger]

I recognize that in its day was a great step forward in gca but, and I know this might be blasphemy to some, I doubt HT would receive anywhere near the recognition today that it received when it was built.  The extremely tight tree lined fairways with houses all over the place just doesn't cut it for me.  You want to see great low country golf go to Chechessee Creek Club.  I would put Long Cove way ahead of Harbour Town.  To even suggest that somehow it is in the same league as Ballyneal is silly.  The land alone makes the comparison unfair.   

[Mark Pritchett]

Hmmm, I suppose if Harbour Town scrapped tee markers it would win this match, as so many opine how “special” lack of markers makes a place.  Newsflash-you can play from any tees on any course.  I have played both courses multiple times and I look forward to a great discussion, thanks John!

[Sven Nilsen]

Hmmm, I suppose if Harbour Town scrapped tee markers it would win this match, as so many opine how “special” lack of markers makes a place.  Newsflash-you can play from any tees on any course.  I have played both courses multiple times and I look forward to a great discussion, thanks John!

If HT didn't have tee markers it would still lose in my book.  But this is John's match.  If I were a betting man I'd wager he has HT winning 10 rounds to 8.  To me the match was over when I checked the wind.

[Mark Pritchett]

Thanks Sven; Ballyneal will probably win, but it will probably be closer than many here would think.  I’m just tired of everyone waxing poetic about no tee markers, that said many here must love Double Eagle!


Perhaps HT should explore a reversible routing. 

[John Kavanaugh]

When you're in a big fight that time on the stool between rounds 1 and 2 is most likely your last chance to look over at the champ and wonder what the hell you got yourself into. Most people want to dismiss this match because HT is flat and Ballyneal is anything but. There was talk of ethos. There was mention of housing. I get that and should address my personal situation. Harbour Town represents family to me. It's home to an annual event where as a quasi-outsider I witness a group of men return to their post college years where they mostly worked as assistant pros. The caddies are old friends and relatives. I am part of a nostalgic love of man and site that I know those who travel to Ballyneal also feel. It transcends resort vs private. I think we can get past the emotional Goddess tugging at our Tommy Johns and look at each design shot by shot.


A special thanks to all my old friends that contributed during round 1. Ball State finally quit asking me to send them more money, or maybe I moved and didn't send them my forwarding address. Round 2 coming up.

[John Kavanaugh]

Round 2 is remarkably two short par 5's of similar yardage. If you go to Ran's review he writes a full paragraph on the land between the 1st and 2nd tee at Ballyneal. Ran doesn't waste words so why should I? What I personally remember most about the tee shot on 2 is that it feels like you are on top of the world hitting to an infinity fairway. To this day I remember that feeling. That is not the feeling you get on your tee shot at HT. I played the 2nd at HT 6 times last week and came away with one thought, "texture". While the land is undeniably flat the texture of the land varies sometimes from shot to shot. You have the fairway, rough, pine straw, waste areas and bunkers. Sometimes on the same hole. So we have a battle of infinite space against the intimacy of texture. Interesting.


I'm going to have to be reminded of the second at Ballyneal beyond the tee shot. I seem to recall a straight short par five receptive to second shots. A truly fantastic example of power golf that can be enjoyed by those whose power is fading away with age. A great hole that I wish I could play time and time again.


The second hole at HT is interesting to me partly because we had just finished a draw friendly approach to be faced with a mandatory fade. One of the beauties of trees is that they are not afraid to dictate shot shape. I was fortunate enough to have two eagle putts in my 6 attempts but failed to make birdie as the pin was tucked behind the guarding right bunker. Plus I hit poor putts. Lag putting matters damnit, especially in a 72 hole tournament.


Not to overthink either hole you just kinda hit the ball find it and hit it again. Not uncommon with reachable par 5's. All that being said, time to fill out the card.


Round 2, hole 2 HT 8 Ballyneal 10


Surprised? My gut tells me that if I remember the feeling I had on the 2nd tee after all these years Ballyneal must have one hell of a hole on its hands.


Recap:


Round 1, hole 1 HT 10 Ballyneal 9
Round 2, hole 2 HT   8 Ballyneal 10

[Mark Pritchett]

I succumbed to the hype of Harbor Town in 2006 and paid $250 for a 5 hour cart-balling round.

I believe I paid $250 to play Ballyneal-$150 plus $100 caddie.  Price and length of round are not german to architecture.