17th at Cabo Del Sol Ocean - Gone?

[Emile Bonfiglio]

This whole thing is unbelievable to me.

......What's next, the 7th??

Just sad....

YP

Actually yes it is next, I've done bit more inquiring and from a good sources I understand that 18 will be eliminated soon. The par 3 7th will also be moved and hole 5 shortened. Eventually 10 & 11 will also eliminated and clubhouse demolished as well.

When is the last time a course of this stature has exercised the nuclear option?

I wonder if after 20+ years the thought is that the course served it purpose. It brought attention to the development, became a name brand of Mexico golf, and will likely still be one of the better accessible clubs in Cabo for the retail golfer to enjoy.

In 10 years I suspect most people staying in the new beachfront hotel will never know there are on the former site of one of the best oceanfront stretch of holes (I'm still talking about you too El Dorado).

Straight Cash Homies!

[Brad Tufts]

I was fortunate to meet you Greg for the Tequila Cup, and I'm glad you moved on when the time was right!  I hope to return sometime soon, with a certain Irishman or not...I will surely let you know.


I feel fortunate as well to have played the Ocean Course at its peak, and I'm disappointed to see a couple of the high points go by the wayside.  It's sad when this happens in our odd little world, but I guess it's a reminder that there are bigger issues at some of these resorts than preserving great golf holes....straight cash homies is right.


As we pile on about CDS, I don't think the loss of 3 or 4 ocean holes poisons Cabo as a golf destination.  With Diamante (x2), Chileno Bay, Querencia (maybe x2 someday), Quivira, and now Twin Dolphins...that's a pretty darn good lineup (connections aside) without including two decent "now without ocean!" CDS courses.


Diamante-Love/Cowley has undergone some changes too since the 18 I played, and they look for the better.  The original #10 was an awkward uphill 480y par 4.95 and looks to now be split into a par three and par four.  Trading the two pond-infused holes for two dune holes looks great from the aerial, and #18 was a bit of an odd finisher, now gone in favor of the neat former 17th as the home hole.  I haven't played the new version, but perhaps an upgrade from a 7-7.5 to an 8?   

[Jake Marvin]

So... where are all these extra holes going, then? And/or will the new par three be permanent or is that just there to make it an 18-holer until further changes are implemented?


Obviously, they're within their rights to change the course, but I do think it's quite dishonest to continue selling tee times at the normal rate with no mention of the recent or upcoming changes unless you flip through the hole-by-hole descriptions (hell, they're still advertising seven holes on the ocean). Usually changes of this magnitude (especially to famous holes) seem to draw some attention. The lack of news here seems a touch deceitful.


While Diamante's being mentioned, has the hotel building nearby impacted the experience at the Dunes? Haven't seen pictures but I imagine I wouldn't like a course more if the ocean and beach views were blocked by a Hard Rock tower.

[Anthony_Nysse]

What was done at El Dorado?

[Tom_Doak]

What was done at El Dorado?

El Dorado used to have the 9th and 18th right along the beach, and the 8th & 17th looking right over them, greens perched near the rocks.


I happened to be at Sebonack with Jack Nicklaus and Jim Lipe the day they got the news that Discovery Land had bought the course and wanted to change those holes so they could turn them into real estate, and they hoped that Jack would be willing to make the changes, but if not they had another designer who could.


The number I heard then was a quick $40 million in real estate.  I assume they replaced the holes for a lot less than that.  The road crossings on the course made the original routing slightly awkward, but not nearly as awkward as what they have now.

[Anthony_Nysse]

What was done at El Dorado?

El Dorado used to have the 9th and 18th right along the beach, and the 8th & 17th looking right over them, greens perched near the rocks.


I happened to be at Sebonack with Jack Nicklaus and Jim Lipe the day they got the news that Discovery Land had bought the course and wanted to change those holes so they could turn them into real estate, and they hoped that Jack would be willing to make the changes, but if not they had another designer who could.


The number I heard then was a quick $40 million in real estate.  I assume they replaced the holes for a lot less than that.  The road crossings on the course made the original routing slightly awkward, but not nearly as awkward as what they have now.

Thank you, sir!

[Greg Tallman]

What was done at El Dorado?

El Dorado used to have the 9th and 18th right along the beach, and the 8th & 17th looking right over them, greens perched near the rocks.


I happened to be at Sebonack with Jack Nicklaus and Jim Lipe the day they got the news that Discovery Land had bought the course and wanted to change those holes so they could turn them into real estate, and they hoped that Jack would be willing to make the changes, but if not they had another designer who could.


The number I heard then was a quick $40 million in real estate.  I assume they replaced the holes for a lot less than that.  The road crossings on the course made the original routing slightly awkward, but not nearly as awkward as what they have now.

Tom, your real estate numbers are waaaay too low. Those holes yielded 38 ocean front lots that were sold at an average of roughly $7 million each. So $300 million is a ball park for what just those holes were “worth”. Add to that the condo/villa product that they were able to stack on top of those homes and the number may be nearly double for a relatively small bit of land.


Fast forward 12 years and two of those homes built on the old 8th green/9th tee area sold as a package deal for $75 million+. Too lazy to go to municipal building to get the exact number but 75 is number relayed by someone involved in the sale... PERSPECTIVE!!

Was never a fan of 17 and 18 that just seemed to be lesser versions of what Jack had already done at CDS.

[Greg Tallman]

I was fortunate to meet you Greg for the Tequila Cup, and I'm glad you moved on when the time was right!  I hope to return sometime soon, with a certain Irishman or not...I will surely let you know.


I feel fortunate as well to have played the Ocean Course at its peak, and I'm disappointed to see a couple of the high points go by the wayside.  It's sad when this happens in our odd little world, but I guess it's a reminder that there are bigger issues at some of these resorts than preserving great golf holes....straight cash homies is right.


As we pile on about CDS, I don't think the loss of 3 or 4 ocean holes poisons Cabo as a golf destination.  With Diamante (x2), Chileno Bay, Querencia (maybe x2 someday), Quivira, and now Twin Dolphins...that's a pretty darn good lineup (connections aside) without including two decent "now without ocean!" CDS courses.


Diamante-Love/Cowley has undergone some changes too since the 18 I played, and they look for the better.  The original #10 was an awkward uphill 480y par 4.95 and looks to now be split into a par three and par four.  Trading the two pond-infused holes for two dune holes looks great from the aerial, and #18 was a bit of an odd finisher, now gone in favor of the neat former 17th as the home hole.  I haven't played the new version, but perhaps an upgrade from a 7-7.5 to an 8?

Brad, thank you and it was a pleasure to hang out with you and the most interesting man in the world.


As far as Cabo golf goes the issue is accessibility as most of the top tier is now private or requires a stay at on site hotel. Unless you are willing to switch hotels every other night it would be tough to play all the better courses (Diamante-Dunes, Chileno Bay, Twin Dolphin... etc). CDS Ocean was still that accessible “trophy course” around which a nice golf trip could be built for the masses. Now it’s a Pebble Beach type scenario... pay dearly for a room (very, very nice room) to access the course(s).


In terms of Diamante-Dunes the original 12 and 13 (now a 12 hole short course/golf playground) didn’t bother me that much but the new holes are decidedly better even if the par 4 is not my favorite.


Moving the green on original 10th (now 11th) was a significant upgrade if only from a location standpoint (both greens still severe for length of hole).


New 10th hole par 3 adds to a strong set of one shot holes and Paul continues to tweak this one to make it better.


Losing the original 18th (now a 14 hole reversible putting course/homes) is an overall positive as it was a strange finish after a great stretch of holes.


Look me up if you head this way, I’ll understand if you don’t respond soon - keyboard likely frozen.

[Greg Tallman]

So... where are all these extra holes going, then? And/or will the new par three be permanent or is that just there to make it an 18-holer until further changes are implemented?


Obviously, they're within their rights to change the course, but I do think it's quite dishonest to continue selling tee times at the normal rate with no mention of the recent or upcoming changes unless you flip through the hole-by-hole descriptions (hell, they're still advertising seven holes on the ocean). Usually changes of this magnitude (especially to famous holes) seem to draw some attention. The lack of news here seems a touch deceitful.


While Diamante's being mentioned, has the hotel building nearby impacted the experience at the Dunes? Haven't seen pictures but I imagine I wouldn't like a course more if the ocean and beach views were blocked by a Hard Rock tower.

Jake,


I don’t believe they are deceiving anyone (apart from overlooking a long used phrase on a website) as guests are informed of 17 when booking to my knowledge and future bookings may be on hold.


As far as the hotel question and Diamante there is little denying a 5+ story hotel impairs the view from what was a hole along the beach (a very deep beach!). That said Paul is a creative little fellow and has mitigated that issue pretty well. Let’s just say that the sand from the hotel site was put to great use on the DUNES course. Take some getting used to but impressive nonetheless.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Regarding the comparisons to Lido...totally different (unless the resort in Mexico is in financial trouble).  As I understand it, the members of Lido started clamoring for a clubhouse with rooms so they could stay for a weekend (remember a trip from Manhattan to Lido Beach was not easy in those days).  So the club built a clubhouse/hotel...and took out a mortgage to finance a large part of it.  A couple of years later in was October 1929...and the club started losing members.  The monthly mortgage obligations were not something the really wealthy members wanted to support...so the bank ended up taking the property.  During WW II it was a training ground...and by the end of the war nothing much was left except the hotel...which now is a condo.


If you go to google maps and search for Lido Golf Club ("Lido 2"), you will find the new course designed by RTJ Sr about 60 years ago...it lies west of where the old course ("Lido 1").  Lido 1 was to the east of the eastern border of Lido 2...and extended in the N-S direction all the way from the Atlantic Ocean to the south and Reynolds Channel to the north.  The Lido 1 clubhouse/hotel (now condo) was near the SW corner of the Lido 1 property and is now called "Lido Beach Towers Condominium".  From overhead the shape of the building (its footprint) looks like an "X"


I love the game of golf and great courses probably as much as anyone, but frankly with what the US was facing during the Depression, I am not surprised the club died...it had become severly overextended and while it is easy to say "how could they have abandoned this?" almost any rational person (and a lot of irrational ones) would have said "let's walk from this" in that situation.


Go to this site for the map:


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lido+Golf+Club/@40.5899602,-73.6284977,2768m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c27a9fa753a04b:0xaf5caabf54bb6286!8m2!3d40.5879593!4d-73.6281979

[Wayne_Kozun]

Isn't something similar happening at Nirwana Bali?  A top 100 course (at least on some lists) is being torn up and redone.  This time it is so that the resort can be even posher.  Apparently the developer of this resort is some guy named Trump.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Isn't something similar happening at Nirwana Bali?  A top 100 course (at least on some lists) is being torn up and redone.  This time it is so that the resort can be even posher.  Apparently the developer of this resort is some guy named Trump.

Tearing up Nirwana Bali is no big loss.  And only World 100's it has appeared on are the '14 and '16 Golf Digest (gone from '18) and 2009-2915 Planet Golf (off since then)

[Wayne_Kozun]

I thought Nirwana Bali was very good for a course in SE Asia. It was rated -777 in the CG and TD writes “...my co-authors’ favourite course in all of Southeast Asia...”

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here it is!!!! From an email....




Introducing The Cove Club At Cabo Del Sol


The Cove Club is the newest private club and community in the famed Los Cabos Corridor. It is tucked along one of the region's most pristine swimmable beaches, and features the Jack Nicklaus Signature Ocean Course, one of the world's finest golf courses and a members-only private beach club. In addition, the community offers a collection of some of the last and largest oceanfront estates available in Los Cabos, authentically inspired residences and our signature member service program, all with a casual and family-focused vibe. The Cove Club brings to life the passion, fun and wonder of Los Cabos, and will ensure you and your family will share a lifetime of memories.



https://coveclubcabodelsol.com/


https://coveclubcabodelsol.com/residences/#

[Edward Glidewell]

So they made the course significantly worse and then made it private?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I don't know if the new course is " significantly worse."  I don't think it's private as some hotels are there. The Cove Club will be private for the homeowners.


https://coveclubcabodelsol.com/club/

[Edward Glidewell]

It's going to be private, at least according to that website. If you go to the golf section it says "

Playing the course will soon be a pleasure reserved solely for members of The Cove Club."

[Steve_ Shaffer]

@ Edward Glidewell






" Other features include a luxury-branded resort, "  from The Cove Club page.  Resort guests  will probably have access; otherwise, why would they pay big bucks to stay there?
The key word in your reply is " soon" as the residences are probably being built now and will take some time for completion. In the meantime. I'm sure resort guests will still have access so go there soon if you want to play there.

I'm planning a trip to Diamante Dunes later this year. Maybe I'll try to play CDS again.

[Brad Tufts]

I love how the "golf" section on the cove club gallery page has a handful of photos of 18 when that hole is being completely removed.


Looks like the current/former #16 is staying, with a new par three built between current/former #15 and #16.  Also looks like current/former #10/#11 will end up underneath a new practice facility.


So in total, former 10/11/17/18 will go.  To make up for the changes, it seems like there will be a reconfigured setup on the current/former front nine, in the area of 5/6/7.  The "community plan" ends at the 8th hole...curious what they will do, as I liked the previously reconfigured 5/6/7.

[Tom_Doak]

So they made the course significantly worse and then made it private?

They are 30 years behind Castle Harbour, Bermuda!

[Brad Tufts]

For sure Tom, although Tucker's isn't very private.


I never played the Castle Harbour version, but I've played TP a couple times, and it's weird, if not horrific.  It's a bandbox at 6200y, and the last time I played it, it was so firm even your layup shots with irons ran out 50 yards into trouble.


I actually liked the redone Belmont by Algie Pulley..it's funky but fun.  I never got to play the Dev Emmet version though.  A couple years ago a local player shot 58 there in one of the Gosling's events!


M-O is a must but pricey, but I guess one can justify putting two rounds worth of greens fees into $300 for one round at M-O.


Anywho, back to CDS...anyone have the lowdown on the reconfigured front nine ocean holes?  Three par threes in a row? 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The Ocean Course will be closed from May 14 to the end of November for the course renovation. In the meantime, here are the rates:


https://www.cabodelsol.com/book-a-tee-time/




There are 2 hotels on premises that allow resort play.

[Greg Tallman]

Brad,


The front nine configuration will remain the same though 7 which is currently the cool 135 yard par three with the tee out on the ocean will move back in front of the villas where it was originally. There will be changes to holes...


5 - shortened with green moved well off its current oceanfront location
7 - as noted above
8 - shortened a bit and likely to have green reconfigured (if only to appease Fergal)
9 - moved below its current location to make way for the new entry sequence for the private section of the development to be known as Cove Club as noted in previous posts.


Longer term changes will likely change the numbering sequence with current #1 perhaps being hole 4. Several different possibilities in this regard though.


And today is the swan song for the 18th hole.

[Brad Tufts]

Wow, interesting...thanks Greg.


I have a great video someplace of Hart Huffines pitching onto the 8th green, and his ball doing a toilet-bowl loop and spin into the front pot bunker, which prompted all of us to burst out laughing.


Seems like the new CDS will be decent if not ocean-infused...and it will probably just be changed again 10-15y down the line.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Re-opened for play and renamed:


https://www.morningread.com/industry-news/release/2020-01-16/cove-club-formerly-the-ocean-course-reopens-at-cabo-del-sol