Challenging all from one set of tee markers

[mike_beene]

To clarify, TOC seems to do this. The course the tour plays in Mexico City at the high altitude got me thinking about this.

[Thomas Dai]

Thomas:
I have recounted here before that when I first went to Carnoustie, the tees were orange, green and yellow.  Each of them used six regular tees, six forward tees, and six of the Open Championship tees.  So, the day I first played it, I played #16 from 248 yards, then on #17 we were forward and could actually carry the far crossing of the burn, and then #18 we played from the normal men's tee. 
It was very cool, and since there were no long carries over waist-high grass, you could play a few holes from the Open tees and actually finish them.  You didn't expect to make par on those holes, but if you did it was a real thrill !
That's a great solution for a normal, 6800-yard course.  For the 6100-yard course I'm planning now, I don't think we have to move things around very much.  A couple of the long par-4's might play like par-5's for most guys, but that just means there are two holes that play like par-5's total, because there aren't any real par-5's on the course.  One of the par-3's might be better played short of the green, like the 16th at Carnoustie -- but again, what's wrong with that?  Par might be 68, but the target score for most guys would still be around what they shoot on a regular par-71 or 72 course.

Tom,
I haven’t heard the Carnoustie story before. I like the sound of the variable 6-6-6 concept.
As to it’s use in previous times versus now and it’s relationship to course length, doesn’t modern equipment, which seems to have expanded the distance variance between better and lessor player, mean that tee markers should be even furrther apart?
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

I expect lower scores from better players. By "challenging" I mean would it still make their skills relevant? Would playing it frequently keep their skills developing? Can it be interesting to all?

Ignored in the discussion to this point is that the top teachers have their pupils play from the forward tees on occasion, to get them mentally accustomed to the idea of making a lot of birdies, and not taking their foot off the gas in such situations.

[Lou_Duran]

The coach at Ohio State had the varsity team play the sub 6000 yard par 70 Gray course a couple of times each season just for that reason.  I don't remember hearing of any sub 60s scores.


Playing the 7000+ yard Scarlet course regularly then going to Findlay for the summer made the shortish Hillcrest GC much easier, at least for the first couple of weeks I was there.  Then my game would acclimate and my scores would creep up to what I was shooting on Scarlet.  Upon returning to Columbus in the fall, it would take a month to get my game back to what it was before I left for the summer.


No, not only do I believe you can't challenge "all" from one set of tees, I doubt that you can keep their interest for more than a few rounds.   Extolling the virtues of the UK system- one that seems to be changing over the years I've been travelling there- during a time when golf is having a hard time drawing players seems to be suicidal and illiberal.


And Mike, TOC is hardly the poster child for what is being implied here.  You've seen where the "pro" tees are, right?  What are the juniors shooting in the spring tournament at Lakewood with a very difficult set up?  How many members hit driver-9 iron to #17?

[V. Kmetz]

I have recounted here before that when I first went to Carnoustie, the tees were orange, green and yellow.  Each of them used six regular tees, six forward tees, and six of the Open Championship tees.  So, the day I first played it, I played #16 from 248 yards, then on #17 we were forward and could actually carry the far crossing of the burn, and then #18 we played from the normal men's tee. 

It was very cool, and since there were no long carries over waist-high grass, you could play a few holes from the Open tees and actually finish them.  You didn't expect to make par on those holes, but if you did it was a real thrill !

From 1973 - 2001, Brae Burn CC in Purchase, NY employed a "3 Color" system (imported from Fresh Meadow) of Blue, White and Yellow which saw 6 holes where each color was forward, 6 where each was middle, 6 where it was back, whereby each tee resulted in an aggregate yardage of around 6350.  A pennant would be flown by the putting green, indicating the "color" of that day... Each "color" course had its notorious virtues and vices and challenges and opportunities


It also had the further utility of having members decide to play their casual rounds from any "all back" "all middle" "all forward" set or combinations thereof (usually back tees on 3s/5s and middle on 4s).


Lastly, this approach worked seamlessly with the utilitarian ethos of an RTJ-inspired/Frank Duane-designed course which features large teeing grounds and large segmented greens, which already bolstered the course to play differently each day.


cheers   vk

[mike_beene]

Tom, I remember Nick Faldo talking about playing the up tees to work on going low. Lou, the driver 9 iron is about right, but it is still a challenge but not a real par 5. If you accept the par on a 6700 course is 67 for a tour player it makes more sense. If the best players are challenged and identified, it seems to work. At my place the biggest difference is the par 3s which are pretty long from the back. About the only place a pro hits a long iron. For the junior Nelson, they didn't want to frustrate the players and moved all the 3s up to 170 or less. I forgot that the Old Course started teeing up from the Eden. I guess a top hits the wall and stays OB. Enough of my ramblings.

[Sean_A]

I am unsure of how folks define challenge, but for me its not the same as difficult. Challenge to me is sort of combo of difficult, fun and interesting/thought provoking.  Given this, I have to say there is no way to challenge all folks from one set of tees because distance is important to a significant percentage of players....meaning many do not want to play a set of tees less than their distance ability.  They don't want to be "overchallenged" with shorter holes which may mean holstering the driver.  That style of golf is less fun for a lot of people...and it is understandable even if one doesn't agree. The flip side can also be true.  For many golfers, playing a set of tees beyond their ability to reach most greens in regulation becomes more difficult than a challenge. 

To me its an odd question because if there has ever been a time when all events and social games were played from one set of tees that would have been very long ago. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean

What about diagonal hazards where the individual player chooses their line based on how much carry they feel able to take on, with more gained for the next shot the more they take on with the drive ? Does that not illustrate perfectly that players of different ability can be challenged off the same tee ?

Neither need the challenge be the same for each level of player. It's surely possible to have an array of different challenges between the tee, point A, and the hole, point B. For example, the 14th at TOC.

Niall   

[John Kavanaugh]

This is a link to the 2018 Tour scores at Harbour Town from 7000 yds. To imply that shortening the course by 1000 yds would lower the scores by even a half shot per hole is insulting to any fan of great architecture. I can't think of a single hole outside of the par 5's where an appreciable difference would be made. It's funny to suggest that where the Pros are not hitting driver now they would pull the big stick when moved up. Look at the scores of the guys who missed the cut. Given the open fronts of the greens I have not played a tour course of modest length that even comes close to being equitable for all levels.


https://www.golfchannel.com/tours/pga-tour/2018/rbc-heritage/

[Sean_A]

Sean

What about diagonal hazards where the individual player chooses their line based on how much carry they feel able to take on, with more gained for the next shot the more they take on with the drive ? Does that not illustrate perfectly that players of different ability can be challenged off the same tee ?

Neither need the challenge be the same for each level of player. It's surely possible to have an array of different challenges between the tee, point A, and the hole, point B. For example, the 14th at TOC.

Niall

Niall, sure, what you say makes sense to some degree, but there can only be so many of those type holes on course before diversity is sacrificed in the name of a rather nebulous goal of one tee for all. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean

I’m not sure I’d have it as a goal or a prescriptive rule as you always want variety, but as a means of challenging lazy “fixed landing areas” type of architecture, I’d suggest it no bad thing.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Diagonals don’t just have to be hazards like bunkers or ditches etc. Short grass humps and hollows or heathery banks or cops etc on the diagonal are cool too. And the degree of diagonal can be pretty much infinitely varied as well.
Atb