St. George's Hill !!!

[Brian Schneider]

If there's a better course in the English heathlands than St. George's Hill, I really missed something special.  On a trip that included many of the heathland's best, I found SGH to be the most impressive by a considerable margin.

The course tumbles gracefully over the expansive, often majestic property.  Tall pines frame many of the holes but never threaten even the worst of shots.

Colt's architecture is equally inspired.  The green complexes are well-conceived, beautifully bunkered, and often boldly contoured.  There is delightful variety in the twelve par-4s, and the set of one-shotters is among his finest(!).  

SGH is one of the few coures I know that contains several entirely unique and undeniably great holes, and none that could be skipped without regret.  Two particular par-4s stand out:

The drivable 4th, 271 downhill yards, is one of the neatest little holes in my experience.  The large green, with a lower shelf along its right side, sits behind and between a trio of bunkers that form a "V" pointing towards the tee.  If you resist the temptation of a 240 yard carry to safety, placement of your tee shot is very much dependent on the hole location.  The hole looks a bit like this, where "+" is the tee, "V" the bunkers, and "O" is the green:

                 O>     +

Fairway wraps along each side of the green, allowing for an infinite variety of tee shots.

The awesome 10th might be my favorite #10 in the world.  A blind tee shot down the right side of the broad, undulating fairway leaves a long second, as the hole bends to the left.  From here, the greenside slopes aid your semi-blind approach.  

A drive down the left shortens the second shot, but a large ridge will block your view of the green.  From here, the contours of the green complex are not so friendly.  The putting surface is itself a work of art, split into an upper plateau on the left and a lower shelf on the right.  Combined with the sharp slope on its left, the green tends to shun approach shots from the left of the fairway towards a pair a bunkers along its right side.

St. George's Hill features that rare combination of architectural sophistication, aesthetic splendor, and a stern yet enjoyable challenge that gives it a place among the world's elite.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Thanks for the descriptive post, Brian!

I've yet to visit the heathlands... which probably explains why I'm so fascinated with the courses there. St. George's Hill is high on my "to see" list.

I can't wait to compare Colt's work in the heathlands to his Toronto (1912) and Hamilton (1914) course here in Ontario, Canada, which I am familiar with.

[Ran Morrissett]

Brian,

What a year - you're very fortunate indeed!

Regarding SGH, holes 7, 9, and 18 are the only indifferent ones and I wonder if they were born out of the fact that Colt was required to return the nines to the clubhouse? He wasn't so handcuffed at Swinley.

Some consider the 3rd a Redan - do you concur?

Other favorite holes would be the picturesque 1st, the long 2nd, the 16th with its crater left of the green and the 17th with its great topo.  

The famous one shot 8th was slightly disappointing as it tolerated far looser shots than I thought it would - what did you think?

Cheers,

[Paul Turner]

Brian

I'm an envious man, SGH is the one great heathland course I haven't got to play  yet.  What other heathland courses did you play?

Everyone seems to rate SGH, why don't the UK rankings?  Wentworth is usually about 30-40 places higher!  Wonder what Colt, the architect of both, would think of that?  

[Brian Schneider]

Jeff and others,

Harry Colt may be my new favorite architect- his collection of work in the U.K. is an amazing resume.  

I've always been under the impression that many of the North American courses which bear his name (Milwaukee CC, CC of Detroit, etc) were actually done by C.H. Alison- am I totally mistaken?

Ran,

Some say fortunate, some say goofy- either way, I had a great summer!

Your point about the returning nines is well taken (although the clubhouse does make for an impressive backdrop on the 9th).  Put me down as a fan of the 18th, however- it's sloping fairway and severely canted green make for an interesting approach.

The 3rd is certainly "Redan-esque", but while the green definately drops to the left, it lacks the front-to-back fall of a true Redan.  Either way, it's a stunning hole that can be played in numerous ways.

I'm not sure I agree regarding the spectacular 8th.  Though the green isn't overly difficult once you're on, there really aren't any good places to miss.  Given the severity of the surrounding hazards, I think a relatively benign putting surface is appropriate.

Paul,

In addition to SGH, I played both courses at Sunningdale and Walton Heath, and Addington.  I walked Woking and Swinley Forest (which is the one course I most wish I'd played).  Though not in the London area, I also visited Moortown and Alwoodly, which are somewhat "heathland-ish".

I can't explain the lack of respect for SGH.  Of the 85 courses I saw on my UK trip, it easily makes my top-10.  A solid "9" in my book.

[Ran Morrissett]

Brian,

I agree - no way is the 3rd a Redan.

While I share your enthusiasm for SGH, is the standard of the holes high enough to be a 9? Yes, the 10th is world class, maybe 8 is too, and some might consider 4 as well but that would do it. And while the rest of the holes are of undoubted quality, are they of the same standard as other 9s (Muirfield, Dornoch, Royal St. Georges, The Golf Club, Garden City, Riviera, Seminole, etc.)? I wonder.

Conversely, I give Swinley a 9 because the 4,9,12,15,and 17 are world class and it just seems like the strecth from 6-8 is just a wee-bit better than say 12-14 at SGH. Maybe, maybe not, hard to say without more field research  

Also, how would you compare the green complexes at SGH to Swinley?

Thank goodness you never made a post saying "I'm considering going to play 85 courses in the UK - do people think that is a good idea?"  

Cheers,

PS You must have played Westward Ho!? Or was that during the period when it was shut?

[Mark_Fine]

Brian,
I really liked this course as well and posted on it after playing there last year.  As you know, it sits on a beautiful but fairly severe piece of terrain.  Colt did a wonderful job with the property but I personally don't go as high as a 9 in my book.  I recall having it around a 7+ or so which is still way up there for me.  

Wouldn't you call it more of a parkland course vs. heathland?  Most of it is cut right out of the trees and it didn't remind me of anything like Walton Heath for example which is truly a "heathland" design.
Mark

[Paul Turner]

Mark

For me, the tree-lined heath courses still feel very different from parkland golf.  The soil/turf is different and there's still loads of heather around, like at Sunningdale Old.  But you're right in that a true heath is more open.  From old photos, I believe St Georges Hill was always heavily wooded unlike Sunningdale and The Berkshire...

Walton Heath was actually losing quite a lot of its heather when I visited it earlier this year.  But the club was clearing a lot of bracken and scrub to get it back, which is good news.  As it is, I reckon there's probably more heather at Sunningdale than Walton Heath even if there are far more trees.

Ran

How would you rate Colt's couple of great courses in Canada with SGH and Swinley?  The picture of Hamilton in Tom Doak's book is wonderful.

[Craig Disher]

My picture of #3 is too shadowy to post. These views from the tee boxes at #1 and #9 show the severity of the terrain (as well as the changeable weather).

#1

#9 with the clubhouse in the background

[Jim Reilly]

To answer a few questions:

Mark:  SGH is definitely 100% heathland.  The sprinkler system is used too much (in my opinion), but the great soil composition at SGH, combined with the hilly terrain, result in what I think is this DG's Nirvana--fast and firm conditions in a garden-green like setting (if they turned the sprinkler system down, SGH would really appeal to the Golf Digest raters because the premium on shot values would soar as indifferent approaches would be treated with much harsher disdain.
Yes, there are many trees at SGH now; but walk into those trees and kick away the pine needles and leaves and you'll find sandy loam.

Ran:  You're right; no way number 3 is a Redan.  Don't even know why someone would say it (the angle's wrong; no bunkers to carry in front; no bunkers to avoid in back and no elevated green; and no consistent tilt from front to back).  Regarding the comparison between Swinley and SGH green sites, I believe that SGH has the superior green complexes, but that Swinley has superior shaped bunkers.  To speak plainly, Colt's bunkers at Swinley are more raw (which I prefer) and are slightly more strategically placed.  That being said, the question was--which course has the better green complexes.  I give the nod to SGH for two reasons:  a) the green contours are more pronounced at SGH (as they should be with the burlier site) and the movement of the terrain again lends itself to spectacular natural green sites which you would want to hit irons into even if there were no greens built there (e.g. 1, 2, 8, 10, 11, 12, 16).  Finally Ran, I don't understand your libel of 9 and 18.  They remind me of pee wee brothers of Shinnecock's 9 and 18 (okay, nothing can compare to the fairway contours of Shinnecock's 9th and 18th, but if they are 10s, certainly SGH 9 and 18s are at least 7s).  Admittedly, if 9 and 18 are playing soft at SGH, they lose a lot of interest.  Bake those greens out a bit and you have two holes that most any course would be proud to own (including many in the 9 to 10 range).

Brian:  I'm glad to hear you liked the course.  Let me ask you about no. 4.  It is also one of my favorites, but I must admit, it's because the strategy of the hole suits my ability.  I'm afraid if you were to get a Matt Ward or Bill V there, that they would be hitting a 4 iron into a par 4!  And, unless you terribly short-side yourself or your ball plugs, you would have a pretty good chance at a 3 (Admittedly, its a great hole for the membership, but for the scratch man, it's a free stroke).

Craig:  Would you agree that the picture of no. 9 doesn't do justice to fairway contours present in that fairway?  Of the Heathland courses I've played, I've found SGH to have the best movement in the fairways and this, coupled with the great natural green sites resting on top of, in the side of and falling away from the hills on the course, present a great test of ball striking that won't break the long handicap man in the cost of lost balls, while still providing a pleasant walk through a beautiful landscape.

Comments?

[Craig Disher]

Jim,
The focal length of the lens on my camera seems to flatten hilly terrain. The pictures of my home course that I posted on the thread about #8 at LCC had the same distortion. Yes, the #9 fairway (and #1) is much more contoured than the picture shows.

[Jeff_Lewis]

I absolutely have given up on trying to post photos of my round on Friday at St. George's Hill.   I can't believe how long it has been since we have discussed this remarkable Colt gem on GCA.   Royal Hague and SGH last week definitely scratched my Colt & Allison itch!

[Paul Rudovsky]

I absolutely have given up on trying to post photos of my round on Friday at St. George's Hill.   I can't believe how long it has been since we have discussed this remarkable Colt gem on GCA.   Royal Hague and SGH last week definitely scratched my Colt & Allison itch!

Jeff--


One thing that SGH and Royal Hague have in common is the "heaving" fairways which I think add so much to both and make them so outstanding.  Courses in USA that so the same IMO are Minneapoplis GC (MN) and Eastward Ho! (MA)


Paul

[Sean_A]

Going through this old thread I find it remarkable Ran thought 9 & 18 are indifferent holes.  Each feature very strong slopes...the 9th at the green running to right to left, encouraging a drive up the tighter left side of the fairway and at 18 a hole which turns against the terrain running left.  Both are good holes, especially the 9th. 

Like Brian, I have a very high opinion of St Georges Hill, but I would say Sunny Old and Pulborough pip it.

Ciao

[Jeff_Lewis]

I am inclined to think it is probably better than Sunningdale and would give West Sussex a very strong match.   I have always maintained that there are only 40 or 50 truly elite courses in the world - not close to 100. There are probably 100-150 that are in that next level of quality where one's preference is likely a matter of style.   I think this one has a very strong argument for being in that elite category. 


If you told me that I could play only one round while in London I think I would choose St. George's Hill or Swinley for that one round. 

[Jon Cavalier]

Here are a few photos from a recent trip. St. George’s Hill absolutely blew me away.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Hmm...even though I cannot figure out how to post my pictures I am glad now that I could not.   Those pics are remarkable!

[mike_malone]

It was our first stop a few years ago. We loved the course but the reception was beyond the course. The secretary accompanied us out to the first tee and encouraged us to go early to beat an outing. We met the super on the course who educated us about their agronomic approach.
 Members greeted us as we came into the clubhouse with the great etchings of winners on the pillars and even though we had a separate room it was comfortable and the bartender didn’t forget us.


I had such a feeling of “Pine Valley Lite”.

[Thomas Dai]

A St George's Hill photo comparison.
atb
Past times with some colour now added -

JC's photo from above -

[Ed Oden]

Like Brian, I have a very high opinion of St Georges Hill, but I would say Sunny Old and Pulborough pip it.

Interesting take Sean.  As you know, I think very highly of Pulborough.  It is a terrific, fun course to play with a bunch of top notch holes.  Can't wait to return.  That being said, I see St. George's Hill as being a cut above.  That's no knock against West Sussex, but rather a testament to SGH which, in my opinion, can go toe to toe with Sunningdale Old any day.


All the best,


Ed

[Sean_A]

Like Brian, I have a very high opinion of St Georges Hill, but I would say Sunny Old and Pulborough pip it.

Interesting take Sean.  As you know, I think very highly of Pulborough.  It is a terrific, fun course to play with a bunch of top notch holes.  Can't wait to return.  That being said, I see St. George's Hill as being a cut above.  That's no knock against West Sussex, but rather a testament to SGH which, in my opinion, can go toe to toe with Sunningdale Old any day.

All the best,

Ed

Ed

Interesting.  When I do a quick match play Sunny Old comes out on top by a hole...so maybe you are right.

Even more interesting, when I do a quick match play between SGH and Pulborough it comes out Pulborough one up.  Make of that what you will!

Ciao