"Doak took the ground game out of play."

[Thomas Dai]

Jeff,
good points and nice anecdotes.
To some the use of the phrase ‘ground game’ implies landing the ball short of greens. It doesn’t have to be though, with the ground game the first bounce doesn’t have to be short of the green it can be on the putting surface and release and curl from there.


Niall,
I suspect this is the Seve video - [size=78%]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Om5uhnjksVI[/size]


Atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

Thomas,


Well Dave Pelz advocated a half swing for low running approach shots, but I have rarely used it unless coming out from under trees. 


TBH, architect who want to force low running approaches ought to have narrow fw corridors, with sparse tees (like a parkland course) and fairly high branching, plus low rough.


Of course, with many front pin positions, bouncing it out in front is a potential option on many greens to get it close, especially if there is a little reverse slope in the approach.  I have measured such things, and it is surprising how 0% to reverse slope really keeps average players from stopping a ball (really, anything under about 1.3% depending on green speed)  As far as I can tell, a green like 12 at White Bear works great for average players, but good ones just hit more high spin shots to hold the green.


I think reachable par 5 holes also benefit from being designed for the ground game.  At just 540 yards, sub 300 yard hitters need a run up (maybe 290/260 3 Wood).  They appreciate the opportunity to feather a 3 wood up with skill to match the moon ball approaches from DJ and similarly long players.  Of course, as per original discussion, they prefer a gathering, predictable slope to help them do that.  Humpty Bumpety makes them just lay up, unless being in a greenside bunker is no problem for them.


And, maybe they work best on max length par 4 holes.  Ross used a similar green at WBYC at Oakland Hills, on the 14th, which now plays as a long par 4 and I watched a lot of players lay up short and run the long irons shots on that reverse slope green.

[Ira Fishman]

Jeff,


That pretty well illustrates the difference between many mediocre players (me) and good players. I will hit a low running shot almost whenever there is not a forced carry and the turf is relatively firm, particularly in windy conditions or tight lies. I am much more confident that I will strike the ball solidly. Plus I think it is great fun to see it scurry and to find out if I judged it properly.


Ira

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ira,


Yes, very few of us feel comfy with those 64 deg wedges, and lower lofts are definitely easier to hit better.  But for just around the fringes, even pros prefer that, keeping the ball as low to the ground as possible, providing it does land on the fringe where possible.  And, if in front of the green, I think landing on the fw approach area is predictable enough, although a 15% upslope or any knobs tend to be hard to judge the effects, especially when Pelz has shown distance control is harder on short shots than line of play.


Heck, I'm with you, and we are one of the few who will hit all sorts of run up shots just for fun, but then, I rarely even keep score so it doesn't matter.  I kinda use the "number of fun shots per round" scoring system in my head.

[Ira Fishman]

Jeff,


I rarely keep score either and love fun shots. Probably the reason I have enjoyed our recent adventures in Ireland and Scotland. But even a 15 degree upslope does not deter me from 70 yards and in—tells you how good my wedge game is.


Ira

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’m a low handicapper who plays by feel and I certainly don’t use the ground “just for fun”.


I have 4 types of approach shot:
1. High, max spin, fly it to the green
2. Slightly lower punched shot, usually in to the wind, fly it all the way and stop it dead
3. Lower again punch, land it short, check it on 2nd bounce and let it roll out
4. Really low, no spin, run it up to the green.


This thread again goes a long way to backing up my consistent point that flatter links courses do not get their dues. They are the courses that most encourage the use of the ground in a scoring situation.


That said, I’ve played The Renaissance Club and other than the soft conditions, I don’t really get Stenson and McIlroy’s points. The course is designed beautifully with a number of greens close to grade that should certainly encourage running approaches. Sounds like they are attributing conditioning to design.

[Niall C]

Ally


My short game consists mainly of 2 and 4, and sometimes 1 where lie, distance and pin position suit, and agree I also do it out of necessity rather than just for fun. I've never been one to putt from off the green and more often than not will still use my 7 iron when just off which takes me back to the Seve thing.


Jeff


Taking the bunker situation Wadkins referred to, for a lot of us we simply don't have the same options from any kind of distance on a dry hard green. Landing short and allowing for the run is the only option really. You might be able to vary the club/trajectory etc but going round rather than over the hazard is still the only play unless you deliberately want to be over the back.


Going back to the original point in the OP, I'm not sure the conditions were right to judge McIlroy's contention about the contours. I went along to watch yesterday and there was an awful lot of shots played in to greens that just stuck rather than going anywhere. That wasn't just down to great ball control but also the conditions. There was a number of times when I expected balls to run off a few yards into a swale or whatever but they seem to hang up on the slope. I'm sure if conditions had been drier we would have seen that which would have made a huge difference to the scoring which was the point Ramsey was making.


If anything there might be more of a complaint for guys like us. For instance on the 7th, which from memory I've only played as a 3 shotter, and the 3rd shot being a wedge/9 iron, landing short and running on with a longer club would be a hit and hope (and there wouldn't be much hope). The 1st is maybe a bit like that as well but over all I don't think Rory would be complaining if he came back in hard a fast conditions.


Niall

[Joel_Stewart]

Edoardo Molinari


@DodoMolinari
Another solid week, but I am not too competitive at the moment on such an easy golf course where all that matters is hitting it 300+ off the tee and then make putts. No strategy involved and no penalties for missing fairways! Looking forward to some well deserved holidays!

[Jim Nugent]

Joel, the same could be said of TOC, if the weather is benign and the course soft. 

[Colin Macqueen]

Yep...the relative softness of the course, no wind, and no inclement weather meant that my proselytising, to  ensure mates here in Oz watched this Doak special, came to naught.


My friends were able to tease me mercilessly about how this piece of blessed turf, according to Macqueen, produced more birdies than ever before! Just wait till next year I told 'em and Mother Nature may yet ensure that the scales get tilted in the right direction!


Cheers Colin

[Jay Mickle]

I rarely keep score either and love fun shots. Probably the reason I have enjoyed our recent adventures in Ireland and Scotland. But even a 15 degree upslope does not deter me from 70 yards and in—tells you how good my wedge game is.
Ira

We must play together one day.

[Ira Fishman]

Jay,


I hope not because you want to see how bad my wedge game is in person!


I am taking my wife to Pinehurst for the first time (as you know, MP/PN is our usual choice). Will definitely holler if the schedule (and wife) permit a 36 hole day.


Ira