News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« on: January 16, 2019, 02:10:45 PM »
I was at PGA west a couple weeks ago and was really surprised by how small the greens were. I first played the course more than 20 years ago, and while my memories aren't specific, I sure didn't remember the greens being like that. I also noticed lots of areas where there were 5-10 feet of rough between greens and bunkers.


So, I did a little photo research and I was right. Here are some comparison photos.


17 in the past:






17 now:






16 before:






16 now:



12 before:



12 now:



It seems like the usual story — greens shrink, interesting hole locations closest to trouble are lost, etc. Or maybe it was on purpose to create a buffer between greens and the severe trouble around them?

Would this be relatively easy to fix, if desired, on a course that overseeds every year?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 01:04:27 PM by Matt_Cohn »

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2019, 02:16:50 PM »
Matt I have played PGA West probably 20 times since 1998 and only have the greens gotten smaller, but the bunkers I feel have lost some shaping of their mounding as well. I really enjoy the course for I like tough layouts personally, although I have no business wanting to play them probably. You need an air game there and be able to handle the ball slightly above / below your feet and carry the bunkers/water.

The conditioning under KSL I thought really left alot to be desired.  Playing Stadium then going over to the Nicklaus tournament feels like a swedish massage IMO as Nicklaus is so much wider without the mounding.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2019, 03:42:16 PM »
Wouldn't those changes make those holes "easier" for mid-cappers and high capper who don't put a lot of spin on the ball?  Looks like those collars/light rough would mean less balls rolling off into far worse trouble.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2019, 04:36:04 PM »
Wouldn't those changes make those holes "easier" for mid-cappers and high capper who don't put a lot of spin on the ball?  Looks like those collars/light rough would mean less balls rolling off into far worse trouble.


Yes, I'd think so. So in part I'm wondering if it was done intentionally, since they've taken other steps to make the course easier over the years.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2019, 05:07:41 PM »
Other than a couple weeks when they do Q school and the Tour event, I'm guessing they would want it less harsh for everyday play, so that makes sense.  But with what appears to be already small-ish greens made even smaller, the pros will likely be griefing over GIR rates.  ;)


Perhaps this is an example of how you make courses harder for better players and easier for the everyday joe...

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2019, 05:29:48 PM »
Wouldn't those changes make those holes "easier" for mid-cappers and high capper who don't put a lot of spin on the ball?  Looks like those collars/light rough would mean less balls rolling off into far worse trouble.
Was thinking the same, especially the pics on 17/16  that little bit of overseed first cut will keep a few balls out of the depths,
although I’ve seen enough courses lose significant area on greens and have no idea it’s happening

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2019, 06:09:56 AM »
I was at PGA west a couple weeks ago and was really surprised by how small the greens were. I first played the course more than 20 years ago, and while my memories aren't specific, I sure didn't remember the greens being like that. I also noticed lots of areas where there were 5-10 feet of rough between greens and bunkers.


So, I did a little photo research and I was right. Here are some comparison photos.


17 in the past:






17 now:






16 before:






16 now:



12 before:



12 now:



It seems like the usual story — greens shrink, interesting hole locations closest to trouble are lost, etc.


Wouldn't this be relatively easy to fix (and shouldn't it be easier to avoid) on a course that overseeds every year?



Matt,
  I have noticed this in the past, also.


My best guess-
Years of heavy overseeding, followed by the push to get the bermudagrass to fill back in in the summer months allow for the collars to push into the greens more than normal, and that's before operator error. I cannot recall a major renovation at TPC since it was built in 1986, therefore the green have probably never been restored. They may even still be tifdwarf, which is great for overseeding, but a very poor putting surface compared to what we have today. If it's been 30 years since any sort of major work has been completed, this would explain why many of the bunker shapes are not typical Dye in their appearance. 
  We renovated in 2016 and though we edge greens weekly, we had lost nearly 1" of green in 2 years. We replaced our cleanup edges last summer & plan to do as needed going forward. We installed a wire during the renovation to have the ability to always find the original edge.
  We had lost 8-13" in selected areas over the years, prior to 2016.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2019, 08:27:24 AM »
I wonder how much wear from mowers also had a role? It is really hard to have "perfect" turf along the edges of each height of cut.

It is super hard to get "perfect" water coverage on the edges. Mowers are also likely turning daily in a 24-7-365 environment like PGA West too, and right in the weak areas. So I'm sure they get "dinged up" at times. In combination with over-seeding, and operator error (it can be scary hanging on the edges!), things evolve. If you are putting up cameras behind these greens once a year and they are looking a lil less "perfect" most people would want to get these areas filled back out a bit too.

I think there are probably a lot of factors going on here that contribute. Who knows if they have re-irrigated too? Have they rebuilt the greens there ever and pulled the mix in a smidge too? I love pushing tight-mow over the edges and clean horizon lines totally hiding the rough cut as much as anyone, but it is hard to keep for long periods of time. Things are always evolving, and it is really hard to notice too.



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2019, 09:28:58 AM »
Shrinking greens saves money, so if a course has ever had managers that were looking to save money, shrinkage will likely be present.  I was amazed how much the greens shrank at Stone Eagle in the few months it was in limbo with the bank.  St Andrews Beach, which also went through bankruptcy, was similarly affected.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2019, 01:35:25 PM »
Shrinking greens saves money, so if a course has ever had managers that were looking to save money, shrinkage will likely be present.  I was amazed how much the greens shrank at Stone Eagle in the few months it was in limbo with the bank.  St Andrews Beach, which also went through bankruptcy, was similarly affected.
That explains the KSL ownership penny pinching.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2019, 02:34:36 PM »
And it's not even that cold there...
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2019, 03:48:50 PM »
And it's not even that cold there...

Maybe they just got out of the pool....

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2019, 02:12:07 AM »
Two greens on the Stadium Course have been expanded this year, and I'm taking credit until somebody tells me I was not the inspiration for this change!


Mowing lines on these two greens have been expanded by up to 10 feet on each side.



#2 last year:



And this year:



#3 last year:



And this year:

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green shrinkage at PGA West Stadium
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2019, 08:57:39 AM »
Shrinking greens saves money, so if a course has ever had managers that were looking to save money, shrinkage will likely be present.  I was amazed how much the greens shrank at Stone Eagle in the few months it was in limbo with the bank.  St Andrews Beach, which also went through bankruptcy, was similarly affected.
I would think it's this, much more than how the course plays.  I went thru this a club in GA where I was a longtime member, and fwiw I didn't think it really made the course play more easily at all.  There isn't much way that a smaller target is "easier".  IMO, this is likely about money one way or the other, either intentionally to cut down on mowing time and/or bentgrass maintenance, or thru lack of resources to keep bermuda grass from intruding into the bent along the fringes.


The vast majority of shots that end up in bunkers didn't get there by rolling off of a green, so I think you can sort of forget that as a reason.  So typically a smaller green just means more balls in some degree of rough, rather than on the green.  And add to that that bunker shots have a higher probability of getting hung up in the larger fringes and not rolling out, with a longer, more difficult next shot rather than a putt.  Likewise, uinless you're playing at Pinehurst #2, shots that are struck well enough to hit the green don't tend to "visit" the green and then leave, only to be stopped from big trouble by the fringe; to the contrary, smaller greens with more fringe make a "green visited in regulation" more likely, not less.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones