Congaree Playability

[ward peyronnin]

 I played Congaree this week. The course deserves many of the superlatives bestowed on it to date. However rarified the overall experience is I struggle after my round with playability of the course and how that influences the overall experience. I struggle with it and solicit opinion from those who have played there to steer me toward a more favorable light
Certainly it is another Fazio example of sweeping majestic features and routing and strategic choices. It is NOT as some have implied minimalist. The routing circulates around huge bodies of water that are clearly the result of cut and fill activity. The vast waste areas exhibit hanging convex high slopes that could not be the result of natural process of wind or water and etc. but all is magnificent.  The bunkers are often flash faced convex sloped as well requiring many hour of hand raking to maintain. I could offer more.  It is what it is.
Conditioning was superb and firm and fast; as close to a 10 as I have ever played
But I cannot recall being so at odds with a course to earn reward for the correct line chosen and played or the proper shot executed and punished or the forcing of near impossible shots to recover a scoring opportunity. Towit:
Some large majority of the terrain -70-80% -is designed to repel shots; higher % on and around greens.
Greens are built with many microbumps and very little level surface so chipping is extremely difficult and putts slow more or scoot past on even well  judged putts or holes are set on slopes  that penalize all but the most perfect read and stroke. The fat part of the green is often angled well away from the line of charm and often toward big hazards where one shouldn’t be. I have a rather solid short game but whether I was on the short or fat side of the green I felt like I had to hit one of those 2 out 10 shots to have a chance to get up and down. I am a veteran of Doak greens and I can play those; these go above and beyond that.
Lines of play often ran cross grain with hazards ,and not just for a brief distance,  or put you in another lo % shot position. I played with a young scratch golfer. On the par 5 8^th my tee ball  hit right at the most aggressive angle to the oblique “cape” waste area and max carry of  220 yds rolled  me across the fairway but behind the right third of a mature live oak . I then had to pull off a 4 wood aimed at the waste area and drawn around and over the right margin of the tree or pitch out and leave myself 160 yds blind shot.  So I hit two superlative shots to place the ball squarely in the high saddle between the waste and gunch to leave a 100 yard pitch to a green that set 60 degrees obliquely to this “only” reasonable angle into the green. A running shot  looked like a choice but a severe front of the apron knob repelling the ball into a deep collection area short side or the very front of the severely sloped l to r green  blew that; but how does one land a pitch on a green sloped away from you and 10 feet higher(sidelope) on the left rear than the front right. The scratch player bombed his 310 yard drive to the only place on the fairway one could hit a direct second shot either at the green or safe in the saddle
The firm and fast conditions invited the ground game but far too many forced carries or very closely spaced severe mounds with dire consequences discouraged that too.
I feel very privileged to have played Congaree but to me it is like a brilliant prodigy whose creation is magnificent but is arrived at in a very disturbing manner. I belonged to Victoria and soon learned how to be comfortable playing there. I am not sure I could do that at Congaree so those of you who have played it I ask you to persuade me things will be better if I am lucky enough to play there again and that it is playable and therefore enjoyable for mere mortal golfers.
 
 

[Tom_Doak]

Greens are built with many microbumps and very little level surface so chipping is extremely difficult and putts slow more or scoot past on even well  judged putts or holes are set on slopes  that penalize all but the most perfect read and stroke. The fat part of the green is often angled well away from the line of charm and often toward big hazards where one shouldn’t be. I have a rather solid short game but whether I was on the short or fat side of the green I felt like I had to hit one of those 2 out 10 shots to have a chance to get up and down. I am a veteran of Doak greens and I can play those; these go above and beyond that.

I hear this a lot about new courses from a variety of different architects.  It sounds like they are trying to put more pressure on scoring at the green end, like I have always done . . . but they are missing the balance with playability in getting to the right spot on those greens.


Severe greens do not mix well with 7300 yard tees and difficult fairway hazards.


But it's nice to hear that I execute my own style better than others do   

[Tommy Williamsen]

Ward, I played there in April and didn't feel that playability was a problem. Of course, I played the old man teeing area. I played with the head pro who helped me get around and made helpful suggestions. For me the most awkward hole was 14(?), the short par four. I tried to drive the green but just could not carry the tee ball far enough. The layup was not very satisfying.

[ward peyronnin]

Tom your input does nothing to answer the questions I posed and frankly seems insulting

[Tom_Doak]

Ward:  my apologies.  I’m not sure what I said that you found insulting.


I think there are maybe a dozen people on the board who have played Congaree and could address your questions.  I’m not one of them. 


You did express a clear view that the greens were kind of similar to mine, yet different in terms of playability.  Talking about how they are different might bring in a few more members of the Discussion Group.

[ward peyronnin]

Tom
That was directed at Williamson and his cryptic bullshit
I hate for a thread to get personal but not my choice
Peace

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tom
That was directed at Williamson and his cryptic bullshit
I hate for a thread to get personal but not my choice
Peace

Not quite sure why you got so angry. Sorry I didn't follow your instructions properly. I did not experience the course the same way you did. On eight, I hit drive, hybrid, and wedge. I bounced shots into greens and got up and down. So calm down.

[Chris Mavros]

Hey Wardy, I played a couple rounds at Congaree about a month ago.  Generally, I saw a lot of the slopes around the greens and off fairway areas as giving the course playability.  I was the high cap in our group, with a couple single digits and a +2.  While we all played the course differently, I certainly played it a lot differently than the others.  There were a lot of holes where I kept myself in it because while those guys tried to stuff it at the pin, I relied on my putting and the bump and run to use the ground to get the ball close. Getting the ball near the green was enough to take out my putter or 9 iron and roll the ball close to the hole.   When my tee shot was off (which felt like a lot), I had a play with a low running shot that put me in the ball park to scramble for par, or I simply had a shot to the green in a bunker or in the native areas. 


One example that comes to mind was the Fourth.  The pin was on the front right both days, so everyone in my group but me went for the pin on the approach by aiming left and having it roll down to the pin.  Being 150 out, I still hit a low running shot up the left side that ran around the bunker and down the hill.  It was a safer play but those that want to take the center bunker on before the green are still more than welcome to.  Being able to bring my putter into more shots helped equalize a lot of the holes with the better players I was with. 


On that Eighth hole, they all wanted to tee it way back, so instead of taking on the dunes on the right too much, I went left off the tee, ran  my second up the fairway, and had a short/mid iron in, whereas those guys were hitting their third from closer to the green (at least those that nailed the tee shot).  A hole like the First, I didn't see the point of even challenging the green side bunker on the right.  It felt like carrying meant your ball would then fall left towards the pin, but I wanted to be below the hole, which meant going left of the bunker altogether. 


I think all but one of the par 3's were forced carries, but distance-wise they were not overwhelming and there was enough room to accommodate mis hits.  On the Tenth, my tee shot went almost half a mile to the left but was pin high and I still had a recovery shot open to the pin. 


There seemed to be a lot of ways to play most of the holes.  I think it was the Sixteenth, a short par 4 with a lot of bunkers between the tee and green and then off to the right of the green.  I think those guys were able to reach the green with hybrids/fairway woods while I just figured I'd hit driver and rely on my bunker game from there.  I ended up winning the hole by hitting my second shot close to the hole while those guys couldn't get their birdie putts to drop. 


I didn't think most of the terrain was set up to repel shots though.  There usually seemed to be a high side and low side, so I just tried to figure what the ball would do once it landed.  Same thing with the greens.  There were definitely spots around the green where recovery shots were very difficult, usually when the green was running away from you and you couldn't putt. 


With all of this said, I thought it was a challenging course.  I thought the slopes, greens, possible recovery shots and firm/fast made it fun yet tough.  There were a number of times I was off green and had to figure out how to negotiate the speed of the green and/or bunkers. 


It certainly is not a minimalist course but I felt it played like one in many ways.  I agree about the greens as well.  It seemed everyone in my group missed an inordinate amount of putts of less than 5 feet but I assumed that was the speed factor. 


I also enjoyed that it was very difficult to lose a ball, leaving a chance to recover most of the time. 


Hope my random thoughts help a little. 


   

[ward peyronnin]

Tommy
My sincerest apologies. I read this thread on my phone and for some reason all I saw was your Gandhi quote which wasn't OT naturally. Once again sorry

[ward peyronnin]

Chris,
Thanks for that and I appreciate your sense of fairness and fun. I think we played it from about 6600+ yds in a 15-20 hr wind so we all struggled.

I think Hole One was a great handshake for the course as the bunker right you mention makes for a difficult bunker short side shot but if you miss left you are far enough below a green whose surface demands landing the ball on a downslope which is much harder to control than a level target as all us students of Dave Pelz know. That condition on many of my greenside misses combined with stimp of probably 12+ and the wind made for challenging short game execution.

Sounds like a that and a tough day slapped me around more than I should have let it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I find this thread fascinating in a couple of ways. Our experience of a course depends on a number of issues. The weather certainly makes a difference. Strength of the wind is a huge defining factor. Obviously skill level can help determine our enjoyment of a course. The courses we are used to and the greens we routinely play can determine our experience on the greens. If I am not on my game any course can seem challenging. I played the course at about 6400 yards. To be honest I am not certain how long some of the individual holes were. Tom Craft, the head pro, directed us to the teeing area we should play. On most of the holes we even played from the front of the tee boxes. I played particularly well that day. I think I hit most of the fairways and about twelve greens. I was in only one bunker and got up and down ok. I did three putt a couple of times. The greens at my home course have a lot of slope and undulation so I am quite used to greens with lot of movement.


Hopefully, you can give it another go and see what that particular day brings. I found the entire experience just phenomenal. I spent the night and a couple of hours messing around on their practice area. If I were a member I think I would just practice my short game more. The tight lies made my 60 degree wedge difficult. I think I only used it once.