Is Augusta National golf course fun to play?

[Mike Wagner]

For example, a 6 footer to win a tournament .. with people watching ... I'm taking the worst statistical putter on tour vs. just about any amateur.

PGA Tour players are not the only people capable of dealing with pressure. Millions deal with pressure every day.

I wasn't trying to argue .. was only asking where the data comes from.  I get where you're coming from, but I will argue all day long that tour players ARE actually that good of putters day in and day out.  I get it .. some days I can out putt them too, but not over the long haul, and quite frankly, my A days are their B days.  And their bad putts are, for the most part, better than my bad putts.  You wrote about stats and I asked where they came from is all .. situational differences are the only differences that matter (to me).


I can only assume millions deal with pressure every day - I'll take your word for it.  They just don't perform as well (as tour players) over 5 footers when the lights are on.

[David Davis]

At the end of last year I also had the very special opportunity of playing a couple rounds for the first time at ANGC, we did also play the 9 hole course.


I can only repeat the sentiments about the experience and it being incredibly unique. Realize the course from the members tees is about 1000 yds shorter than what's played for the Masters. I don't by any means consider myself long, probably more wide than long off the tee but all the par 5's were definitely reachable for me and there was literally no roll when we played so that says a fair bit about the distances which only made it fun, going for them and managing a few easy birdies. (relatively speaking).


It was my first visit to ANGC having never attended The Masters or walked the course. The biggest surprises for me were definitely how open everything was, how much width there is, how much elevation change there is to deal with (naturally I had also been warned about this but still) and perhaps more than anything else how small the greens were compared to what I expected.


The one part of my game that I was really really successful with on weekend I was there was my short game and chipping/pitching. I putted average (which is my favorite part of the game) I didn't make any long putts but also didn't have more than perhaps 4 or 5 really semi crazy putts after approaching into a less than ideal positions. While I didn't make any longer putts the greens were not running at lightening speeds, maybe 10.5 - 11, though they said faster but I didn't feel that. What I did decently with putting was lagging the ball near the hole to be able to tap in. I think that's where you can really get into trouble, at least if you are putting out there. You can have 2-3 footers that really are breaking a lot and a poor or unconfident putter could be out there all day trying to finish.


They put a real stress factor on trying to play in 3.5 hours which is very cool although at the same time I think on your first visit the time goes so fast you almost wish it could just take a lot more time so you can soak everything up. At least that was my feeling. I was also kind of nervous, more so than during other rounds but it was a really special occasion. I usually play better when I feel that way but notice that the time goes by so much faster. Blink and it's already over. The weekend for me went by way way too fast.


I was lucky and hit some very good shots on key holes which certainly doesn't always happen when you play a new course for the first time. I've had more than my share of days at really cool places where if it weren't for enjoying the walk so much and the company I could of better stayed in bed.


In this vain I managed a truly ridiculous bogey (that could of been a disaster) when my chip out of the trees on 11 switched sports to pinball. Then I threw up a Hail Mary slicing a 5 iron off the pine straw over the water onto the green. Like I said that could of been bad.


The other was really the luckiest (and look I realize nobody cares really what I did - just sharing the fun). On 16 to a bottom left pin I missed right of the green on my tee shot. Just short of the bunker however. The caddies started laughing, as they do, and said it was going to be fun. My caddy told me I needed to chip across the length of the upper section of the green and kill the ball into the fringe 1/3 the way down the left side. Then and only then would I be able to get the ball close. Pin was close to Tiger's famous hole out position when he chipped from the left rough. An out of body experience later and I had a tap in over.


The other real playing highlight was a 2 on 12 to a back right pin that looked in the hole going by. Admittedly that felt cool.


For me by far the hardest holes were 11 and 18. 11 really requires a perfectly executed cut (with driver) from the members tees or you risk running out of fairway. 3 wood is a safe option but the result is a butt clenching hook lie of an approach with a mid to long iron and water left, of course. The bail out to the right leaves a ridiculously hard chip with water behind. For me nothing about that hole felt comfortable, not once.


18 was the other hole that really felt awkward. The drive is tight compared to most and again it really requires a well executed cut from the members tees. I hit 3 wood in both rounds, both times into trouble. One on the edge of the bunker the caddy assured me I could not reach. He was right, I still had 1 inch to go but no play at all since that bunker is so deep. If I was playing multiple rounds again there and not controlling my tee shots well enough I might just hit 4 iron off that tee and lay up if I could reach the green just to stay out of trouble. Some holes just don't feel like they suit you.


In any case, yes, amazing experience. I also think that everyone would have fun there, regardless of whether you thought it was the best course on the planet or not, there are simply a lot of fun shots. No lost balls (well very few, but some water hazards of course). Quick pace of play, fun approaches and great fun chipping and putting. Even with all the changes that many of us might like to see done differently or even restored to something similar to the amazing original photos there is really a lot to like there even for the most picky of us. The best part might be the brilliance of the routing which sure makes the most of that crazy property.

[Mike Hendren]

I do not believe there is a better golf course in the world than Augusta National Golf Club's, though there are likely several equals.  I'm also not surprised that the course is somewhat accommodating for membership play. 

Conditioning for member play likely includes much slower green speeds and fairway lies that slightly less tight.  Generally, hole locations will be more liberal as well.  That said, I've always thought the ability to hit greens frequently from 150 yards in is the true test of a golfer, regardless of handicap.  With that criterion,  no less than eight of the fourteen one and two shotters should be approached with no more than the player's typical 150 yards club (including the 6th which plays a club shorter than the 165 yards on the card - with all bets off if the hole location is on the micro-plateau back right) with two more - the 9th and 18th a possibility.  The caveat is that the course might play longer than the yardages during the season it is open.

I can't think of a great course where 3 of the par fives cover less than 500 yards each,  and the 2nd plays much shorter than its 515 yardage on the card given the dramatic downhill second shot.  Conversely the 8th at 480 yards plays effectively longer with the intimidating second that feels like you're staring at Fenway's Green Monster. 

I can't think of a single par-plus-a-half hole on the premises, other than the 5th - still "only" 400 yards and the 10th if one fails to turn the ball over from the tee.  The flip side is there aren't any par-minus-a-half holes on the course notwithstanding the relatively modest distances - 455 and 475 of the par fives on the second nine. 

Perhaps the course is more likely to make a fool out of the player than it is to beat him up.  I find the first scenario funny, the second not so much.

A final anecdote.  West Tennessee amateur Danny Green first participated in the Masters in 1990 based up his runner-up finish to Chris Patton the previous year in the U. S. Amateur at Merion.  I suspect he had the ugliest golf swing ever to grace the tournament but was a putting fiend.  Challenged for distance, I saw him his a wood from the 4th tee.  Of Green, Patton stated that if he had to bet his life on someone making a putt he'd pick Green over anyone else in the world.  Legend has it that Green was involved in some serious off-course wagering at a Chattanooga club on his way down and offered the losers the opportunity to recoup their money if he could not shoot 160 or better in the first two rounds of the Masters.  His scores:  80 and 80.

[Jeff Schley]

I can't think of a single par-plus-a-half hole on the premises, other than the 5th - still "only" 400 yards and the 10th if one fails to turn the ball over from the tee.  The flip side is there aren't any par-minus-a-half holes on the course notwithstanding the relatively modest distances - 455 and 475 of the par fives on the second nine. 

How about 11?  9 if you don't leave your drive out and can't carry it onto the green with your 2nd, that green is TOUGH.

[Mike Hendren]

The 11th plays at 400 yards with the second significantly downhill and plenty of room right.  A drive of 230 yards leaves 170 yards in playing a club shorter.  The approach must be smart, not precise. 

Your point is well taken nonetheless.

Bogey 

[George Pazin]

Nothing against Erik B, but I don't believe his stats. I doubt they are recorded under remotely similar conditions. But hey, have at it if you like. Dave Pelz has plenty of stats, he worked for NASA, yet I doubt his as well. I never worked for NASA, but my dad taught me how to knock holes in people's stats...


Regarding ANGC, members adapt. I haven't played there, doubt I ever will, but I think members learn how to score there, as they do everywhere. Oakmont is as hard as any course in the world on a day to day basis, but members learn how to play it. I doubt anyone has posted as much about Oakmont on here as yours truly, so people tend to send me messages after they've played it. The overwhelming majority fit this pattern: after one play, they say it's a great course, but wouldn't want to play it on a regular basis. After a few plays, they start to see the genius and learn how to score. I'd guess ANGC is similar, though most would skip the first part of that, given its history.


I simply can't imagine Augusta isn't fun to play. I can't even imagine it's not one of the most fun to play courses in the world, given its history. But I sure can see someone posting that, as playing the contrarian still speaks to some. Not me, but some.


As an aside, it's funny how people accept anecdotal evidence if it supports them, but dismiss it if it refutes them.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Nothing against Erik B, but I don't believe his stats.

Fine by me. Keep clinging to old (wrong) ideas.

I doubt they are recorded under remotely similar conditions.

You're right - if anything, amateurs are hurt by the generally poorer conditions on which they putt. Put all players on identical conditions and the gap narrows even further.

As an aside, it's funny how people accept anecdotal evidence if it supports them, but dismiss it if it refutes them.

I base my decisions, approach, opinions, etc. on actual data, not anecdotes.

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To the actual topic… I imagine Augusta National would be very fun to play. I listed Oakmont on my "fun to play" list, and was surprised to see others list it as well. But obviously I can agree.

[Mike Wagner]

As an aside, it's funny how people accept anecdotal evidence if it supports them, but dismiss it if it refutes them.

I base my decisions, approach, opinions, etc. on actual data, not anecdotes.

It would be interesting to see the actual data.

[George Pazin]

I base my decisions, approach, opinions, etc. on actual data, not anecdotes.

As long as you understand your decisions, approaches, opinions, are actual opinions and not facts, I don't have a problem with your thoughts at all. I find them interesting, actually. I'm just not accepting them as fact. How one compiles data is easily the most important - and vexing - part of any study.


And, as Mike says, it would be nice to see the actual data.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

As long as you understand your decisions, approaches, opinions, are actual opinions and not facts

My decisions, etc. are based on the facts. Fact: the world is not flat. Decision: I won't fall off the edge of the earth if I sail west past Hawaii. I'll just end up in Japan (or Australia or something).

A simple fact:
- The separation between a scratch golfer and a PGA Tour player is higher off the putting green than on the putting green.

These things aren't complex, you simply have to be open to a new understanding.

How one compiles data is easily the most important - and vexing - part of any study.

And, as Mike says, it would be nice to see the actual data.

Then go look at it. Go buy yourself a copy of ESC or LSW or both. Or borrow one from the people who have already bought one, which includes Tour players (including major winners and Ryder Cup contestants), Tour coaches, instructors at every level, top (and bottom) college programs, and a bunch of regular golfers, too.


Could we get back to the topic now?

[George Pazin]

Could we get back to the topic now?

I already weighed in on that, you simply chose to ignore it.


An opinion based on fact is still an opinion.


Have a good one!

[Kalen Braley]

Erik,

Interesting you mentioned flat-earthers, I've bumped into a few online (who at least claimed to be).

I told them to start a gofundme where we put a bunch of em on a boat and and set sail to the "edges" of the earth...with cameras in tow and a live sat feed.  I would definitely chip in to make that happen!

P.S.  I tell them about my trip years ago when I flew west to India on a work trip and then continued to fly west to return home...brain baked! 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

An opinion based on fact is still an opinion.

The only opinion I've expressed here is that I'd bet you, even at 3:1 odds, whatever the bet was a few pages ago.

That's it. That's the only opinion here. The rest are facts: amateurs are better putters than you seem to think (or pros are not as great as you seem to think).

You want to see the data? Go get it, George.

[Mike Wagner]

As long as you understand your decisions, approaches, opinions, are actual opinions and not facts

My decisions, etc. are based on the facts. Fact: the world is not flat. Decision: I won't fall off the edge of the earth if I sail west past Hawaii. I'll just end up in Japan (or Australia or something).

A simple fact:
- The separation between a scratch golfer and a PGA Tour player is higher off the putting green than on the putting green.

These things aren't complex, you simply have to be open to a new understanding.

How one compiles data is easily the most important - and vexing - part of any study.

And, as Mike says, it would be nice to see the actual data.

Then go look at it. Go buy yourself a copy of ESC or LSW or both. Or borrow one from the people who have already bought one, which includes Tour players (including major winners and Ryder Cup contestants), Tour coaches, instructors at every level, top (and bottom) college programs, and a bunch of regular golfers, too.


Could we get back to the topic now?

This was the only part of the thread that was interesting.  I mean, really??  Is it even a question that Augusta would be fun to play ... seriously??

[Joe Hancock]

As long as you understand your decisions, approaches, opinions, are actual opinions and not facts

My decisions, etc. are based on the facts. Fact: the world is not flat. Decision: I won't fall off the edge of the earth if I sail west past Hawaii. I'll just end up in Japan (or Australia or something).

A simple fact:
- The separation between a scratch golfer and a PGA Tour player is higher off the putting green than on the putting green.

These things aren't complex, you simply have to be open to a new understanding.

How one compiles data is easily the most important - and vexing - part of any study.

And, as Mike says, it would be nice to see the actual data.

Then go look at it. Go buy yourself a copy of ESC or LSW or both. Or borrow one from the people who have already bought one, which includes Tour players (including major winners and Ryder Cup contestants), Tour coaches, instructors at every level, top (and bottom) college programs, and a bunch of regular golfers, too.


Could we get back to the topic now?

This was the only part of the thread that was interesting.  I mean, really??  Is it even a question that Augusta would be fun to play ... seriously??

I thought the only interesting part of the thread is where Tom says he doubts he’ll ever get to play there again....

[Peter Pallotta]

 
Ah, Augusta - just about the only golf course on the planet that exemplifies the old Taoist adage: "Those who know don't talk; those who talk don't know"
Funny to think of the couple of dozen posters around here who actually know the answer to this question, but who aren't posting!
 
 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

This was the only part of the thread that was interesting.  I mean, really??  Is it even a question that Augusta would be fun to play ... seriously??

True. How about Oakmont? Maybe that would make a better discussion.

I love playing at Oakmont, and have "fun," but it's a different kind of fun for sure. (But yeah, that too is off topic for this one…)

[George Pazin]

You're certainly right about Oakmont, Erik. It's a truly special place, and I simply can't Augusta to be otherwise as well.


And I thought about it last night, and you're right, I was wrong to call you out for your study without seeing the data myself. I apologize to you for that. I'm still a bit skeptical, but someday I will look into it. Thanks for your contributions to the thread.


Have a good one!