Is Augusta National golf course fun to play?

[Greg Taylor]

My friend played there twice. He’s about an 8 or 7 handicap, he shot I think an 84 but second time he shot a 76 from the members tees. He’s told me about it several times, lol


I think it’s a lot easier from the members tees, like 15 shots or more. Having a wedge as opposed to a  4 iron into the 11th for example... completely different hole.


He said it was a total blast to play too.


I have played CD and the greens there might be comparable. The first, fifth, eleventh and thirteenth are incredible. How I imagine ANGC’s greens to be.

[Robert Emmons]

I've played 6 times playing to about a 12....member tee's and member green speeds....I'm not hitting par 5's in two anywhere....its fun, great fun, interesting humps and bumps bouncing the ball, greens are fun as they make you think...great staff and member's who enjoy showing the course...RHE

[Wayne_Kozun]

...If you can't go for any of the par-5's in two, that removes a lot of the fun of it right there.  I think it's a great course, but I wouldn't even have thought about it if you asked me to name the most fun courses I've played.

I think it would be very hard for all but the longest hitting ams to go for the par 5s in 2 - unless the members tees make the holes play well under 500 yards.  13 and 15 have water hazards just short of the greens that make it a very dicey proposition.  #2 might be possible but unless you can fly it onto the green it is a pretty narrow aperture between the bunkers fronting the green.  That leaves #8 which is so steely uphill that I doubt amateurs could reach it.

[Kalen Braley]

To hopefully prove my last post.

Does anyone know anyone who has played it and said "It was just OK" or "it was good but not great" afterwards?

The course is only part of the equation.  The grounds, the history, the cabins, the ambiance, etc....it is what it is and I don't know how anyone could possibly separate that from actually just playing the course.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Never said scratch golfers. Said single digit, so assuming five handicap.

An 80s shooter out-putts a PGA Tour player about 20% of the time.

Also no practice rounds and under tournament conditions.

No practice rounds now? C'mon, even the pros get those. Next thing you're gonna say they don't even get to putt on the practice green.

Also where the average participant hits their second shots not the leaders. I am still not convinced that 90 would be broken.

I'd take that bet with 3:1 odds against and bet you 1/3 of my life's savings today, even WITH your goofy "no practice rounds" thing.

It's not like EVERY putt they're gonna hit is from a poor spot, and PGA Tour players still miss a few greens and chip to 2-10'. You're drastically under-rating the ability of players to putt, or drastically over-rating the putting ability of PGA Tour players.

I already told you I know a 5 handicap who played there and shot 80, so...

And that's SHOT 80, not just putting from where a Tour player puts his shots.

[Kalen Braley]

Anecdotally, when I was at the top of my game a number of years ago putting was by far and away my best skill. On courses I had played a few times to get a feel for the greens, I rarely 3 jacked, even when I was 50+ feet from the pin.


And after watching guys like Adam Scott and Vijay struggle so much, I recall thinking, I could putt better than them! And Erik at least would seem to back me on this... 

[Mike Wagner]

I've often thought that if you put a single digit golfer where the pros are in two (1 on the 3's) , he still couldn't break 90...

A scratch golfer out-putts a PGA Tour player over 30% of the time (over the course of 18 holes).

It would be interesting to know where these stats come from ..

[Carson Pilcher]

To hopefully prove my last post.

Does anyone know anyone who has played it and said "It was just OK" or "it was good but not great" afterwards?

The course is only part of the equation.  The grounds, the history, the cabins, the ambiance, etc....it is what it is and I don't know how anyone could possibly separate that from actually just playing the course.

I know many people who have played it. Most everyone gushes about it.  However, I did have one buddy respond uniquely when I asked him, "Was it incredible"!?  He paused and looked at me and then said, "It was a great experience, but I will say that best part about playing Augusta is the anticipation leading up to it. Once, I was there, it was just another golf course".


Needless to say, I was floored.


Also needless to say, I PRAY for that anticipation one day. :-)

[John Kavanaugh]

I've often thought that if you put a single digit golfer where the pros are in two (1 on the 3's) , he still couldn't break 90...

A scratch golfer out-putts a PGA Tour player over 30% of the time (over the course of 18 holes).

It would be interesting to know where these stats come from ..

If you have ever played a tour pro for money you quickly learn that the one thing they can do is putt. As a matter of fact the only thing they can do better than hundreds of thousands of other golfers is get the ball in the hole.

Do you guys have any idea how bad a scratch golfer is compared to a touring pro? Scratch is around 20 over par for any given tournament.

[Joe Leenheer]

Did he play it under tournament conditions?   Weree the pins placed in tournament positions? Also,  A very small sample is not representative of five handicappers.  That being said I could very well be wrong on this.   I am not convinced, however, that even a single digit golfer would not have numerous three putts  and perhaps a few four putts under tournament conditions.

After seeing the green structures first hand....I find it hard to believe there are that many more hole locations then what we see during tournament week.  Forget elephants....they buried humpbacks in them greens.

[Jeff Schley]

Do you guys have any idea how bad a scratch golfer is compared to a touring pro? Scratch is around 20 over par for any given tournament.

Exactly and a point worth remembering that your club champ is maybe a plus handicap 2 or 3.  For example, Tiger Woods's handicap in 2000 was said to never drop below +10!  Remember this is every round, so if he took on your +3 club champ he would have beat him by 28 strokes over the course of the tournament.
I'd still like to see the super marker Jeff Knox on the Champions Tour but I think he is only a +2 or 3 himself so probably wouldn't fare as well as I would think.  However at ANGC he is a stud.

[Joe Leenheer]

...If you can't go for any of the par-5's in two, that removes a lot of the fun of it right there.  I think it's a great course, but I wouldn't even have thought about it if you asked me to name the most fun courses I've played.

I think it would be very hard for all but the longest hitting ams to go for the par 5s in 2 - unless the members tees make the holes play well under 500 yards.  13 and 15 have water hazards just short of the greens that make it a very dicey proposition.  #2 might be possible but unless you can fly it onto the green it is a pretty narrow aperture between the bunkers fronting the green.  That leaves #8 which is so steely uphill that I doubt amateurs could reach it.

To quote one of my former interns while playing Firestone South from the tournament tees....


"Every hole is a par 5 for me."

[John Sabino]

Yes, it is a fun course to play, at least for the average handicapper from the member tees. I played in tournament conditions with tough pins and the fun and challenge of the course is around the greens, chipping and putting. Especially underrated are holes you don't see as much on television like the 340 yard par four 3rd and the killer 170 yard par 3 4th.


If you don't have fun playing Amen Corner then you probably should't play the game.

[Mark Chaplin]

As you may have heard Whisper Rock keep handicaps for all of their tour pro members (around 30), their handicaps range from +4 to +8.


+4 doesn’t sound great but remember each of the counting rounds are tournament rounds with pins hidden, back tees, greens shaved etc.

[Andrew Buck]

It's not like EVERY putt they're gonna hit is from a poor spot, and PGA Tour players still miss a few greens and chip to 2-10'. You're drastically under-rating the ability of players to putt, or drastically over-rating the putting ability of PGA Tour players.

Erik,
I'm sure you actually have the data, but this argument surprises me a lot.  It doesn't surprise me that most people don't appreciate that the vast majority of the difference between every level of golfer is from tee to green.  That said, just based on the sheer amount of practice a pro does on putting vs your average scratch golfer, I can't imagine putting better than a tour pro 30% of the time.

That said, it seems much more possible for a scratch golfer with unlimited practice and instruction to putt like a pro than strike the ball like a pro. 

[Joe Leenheer]

Just to add a bit of levity to this thread...


The greens will be considerably easier moving forward now that you can leave the flag stick in!   

[Jim Nugent]

An 80s shooter out-putts a PGA Tour player about 20% of the time.

What do the stats show for the short game?  I would think in that category the 80s shooter out-shorts the pro close to 0% over 18 holes. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

It would be interesting to know where these stats come from ..

Thousands and thousands of rounds of actual data.

If you have ever played a tour pro for money you quickly learn that the one thing they can do is putt. As a matter of fact the only thing they can do better than hundreds of thousands of other golfers is get the ball in the hole.

The statistics do not agree with you John.

Do you guys have any idea how bad a scratch golfer is compared to a touring pro? Scratch is around 20 over par for any given tournament.

And the vast majority of those strokes come from the driver and approach shots.

I'm sure you actually have the data, but this argument surprises me a lot.  It doesn't surprise me that most people don't appreciate that the vast majority of the difference between every level of golfer is from tee to green.  That said, just based on the sheer amount of practice a pro does on putting vs your average scratch golfer, I can't imagine putting better than a tour pro 30% of the time.

Tour pros are on the Tour because of their ballstriking, and putting is not a difficult skill - it's far, far simpler than the other skills in golf, and putting involves a high amount of variability. One standard deviation in SG Putting round to round is +/- 1.7. That's huge. (Also, pros don't practice their putting as much as you might think.)

I'm trying to answer briefly as I don't want to get off topic, but I also want to answer questions posed to me and respond to things I believe to have been shown incorrect. This stuff is in my wheelhouse. Architecture is not; I try to listen more re: architecture than speak.

[MClutterbuck]

Actually, what I said was, I could put you on 18 greens in regulation, and you couldn't break 90.

I've played Augusta three times.  One of the times, our host had recently had surgery, and couldn't make a full swing, so we played a game where he was considered to be "on" in regulation wherever the first of our other three balls was on the green . . . and he had to putt first from there.  I think he still made more pars than bogeys by that method.


However, if you were saying you could put someone in the worst possible spot on each green relative to the hole location, I'd say 54 putts would be entirely possible under that scenario . . . if not more at Masters speeds.


Anyway, I doubt I will get to back there, so I'll be the guy who says Augusta is only fun if you're a pretty good player.  If you can't go for any of the par-5's in two, that removes a lot of the fun of it right there.  I think it's a great course, but I wouldn't even have thought about it if you asked me to name the most fun courses I've played.

Tom,


I partially disagree and I think this depends on your home course and how tough it is. At ANGC I played by the rules for 3 rounds. Each round I scored better than some of my best rounds at my home course and had my share of birdies. I have played to 8-12 handicap past 20 years and dont play much.


I found ANGC to be an extremely fun course, probably the most fun I have had on a course. It is wide off the tee, which suits me. I could let loose the driver without any problem (except #1 where I could not feel my body). It is tough to loose a ball and get in trouble. Recovery is always possible (assuming your handicap allows for a bogey). It is not long off members tees and you get the chance to play some of the same approach shots the pros play. Greens in regulation were most likely than not.


I could not reach #8 in 2, nor did I get realistic chances to go for the green on #2. But #13 and #15 are reachable, and you can go for them, if probably not smart. I birdied #8 and #15, both times laying up.


I agree greens are TOUGH and 4-5 putts are possible if you do not listen to caddie and if you cant putt well. Distance control is key. Listening to caddie should start at the tee or fairway. You need to be below the flagstick on most holes (#4 comes to mind). You need to be on the right section of the green to avoid the putts (#6 comes to mind).


Members know how to play those greens. Experience counts. You have to listen to them. They are of course all proud to be members for many reasons, but I know they have fun on the course. Lots of fun.

[Jeff Schley]

Nice summation Mike..... curious what you thought of:
Tee shots4, 12, 18
Approach shot11, 15
Putting on 9

[MClutterbuck]

Nice summation Mike..... curious what you thought of:
Tee shots4, 12, 18
Approach shot11, 15
Putting on 9

Not Mike, but will give you my opinion...


4 is tough for us amateurs because of length. And you do not, cannot be long, on or off the green.


12 is a precise little shot, but I had no issues on 12. Not windy, might make the difference.


18 is no issue from the member tee. #9 is much tougher in that you want to reach the dogleg and have a good angle. 


The approach shot on 11 is by far the toughest and I found the pond. Probably the toughest shot for the amateur.


There is a long thread on 15 with strong opinions. I did not find laying up on 15 an issue, gives you a nice sand wedge shot onto green off a perfect fairway. You must not be afraid of tight lies but at least outside Masters week it was not a problem.


Putting on 1, 4, 6, 7, 9, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18 is all really tough. Tons of 3 putt greens for me. Again I think depending on where pins are placed you might get an easier or really difficult experience.

[Jeff Schley]

Great feedback and can almost picture myself there. )
Sorry, thought your first name was Mike.
Did you play the par 3? It doesn't look like very much undulation in those greens. 

[MClutterbuck]

Great feedback and can almost picture myself there. )
Sorry, thought your first name was Mike.
Did you play the par 3? It doesn't look like very much undulation in those greens.

I had been to the Masters and got to see the par 3 tournament. My host was kind enough to allow me to decide we play an extra round on the big course rather than the par 3 course. I do not regret it.

[Mike Wagner]

It would be interesting to know where these stats come from ..

Thousands and thousands of rounds of actual data.

Gotcha.  I'm interested to know what kind of rounds compose those thousands of rounds.  To be blunt, I get statistics, but it's going to get dicey when comparing amateurs and pros and the situations each putt are under.  For example, a 6 footer to win a tournament .. with people watching ... I'm taking the worst statistical putter on tour vs. just about any amateur.


Thought to get stats based on the situation, pressure, etc.  Maybe you have them, I don't know .. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

For example, a 6 footer to win a tournament .. with people watching ... I'm taking the worst statistical putter on tour vs. just about any amateur.

PGA Tour players are not the only people capable of dealing with pressure. Millions deal with pressure every day.