Have you left the flag in?

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a slow motion video of a ball coming off a stimp meter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnTWR1xnTDg

[Kalen Braley]

Another interesting question.

This video shows the ball in its first 6-8 inches of being struck and its only barely started rolling, its a knuckle ball at this point.  I would think a fully rolling ball vs a knuckle ball could make a fairly significant difference in what happens after it hits the pin..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zurbEelPkxM

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Have you ever watched a slow motion replay of a putted ball? It isn't even rolling yet for most of the first 18 inches. It's barely even on the ground.

Yes, we've filmed a few hundred with a Phantom camera at 12,000 frames per second. It's not "accelerating" linearly after it leaves the putter face. Again, I'm starting to realize why you think physics is like religion.

This video shows the ball in its first 6-8 inches of being struck and its only barely started rolling, its a knuckle ball at this point.  I would think a fully rolling ball vs a knuckle ball could make a fairly significant difference in what happens after it hits the pin..

Not a problem on balls rolled down a Perfect Putter, nor for balls that have been rolling for 12+".

---------

Believe what y'all want; I'm here to talk about (or more often read about, as it's not my area of expertise) GCA, not whether the earth is flat or not.

[Daryl David]

Back to the original question of whether you are leaving it in. We are a few weeks in and each round more of my group’s players are leaving it in. Some vary depending on length of putt. Almost everyone leaves it in on long ones for speed of play. In the last few days I have noticed more leaving it in on short ones. When quizzed, the reason seems to be confidence of the smaller target. Less physics and more mental.


Today I noticed a new reason for leaving it in. We had three instances on shorter straight putts where the flag shadow was a perfect line to the hole. Much like when players practice with a chalk line, these players left it in as an aiming line. So now we have lines on the ball, the pin and shadow of the pin to help those with shaky putting stokes. All good.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's all fine if the wind isn't blowing. This winter the pins were frozen in the holes and I got flagged. The shadow of the flag was directly over my ball waving like the 4th of July.

[Dan Herrmann]

I've been doing this ever since the USGA announced the rule.  It really speeds up play.

[Daryl David]

Wild ass prediction.  If all the majority of pros are doing by the end of the year and speaking out like Adam Scott about its effectiveness, the governing bodies will change the rule back.  Quote from Pagel: “If there was some kind of conclusive evidence that showed a significant advantage,” Pagel said, “I think we would have to go back and reevaluate it.” 



Also found it funny that McCord stated emphatically yesterday that the only testing on the issue was done 30 years ago by Pelz.  Does the guy live under a rock?

[JESII]

What just happened on Adam Scott’s two footer for par on #3 at Torrey? Did it nick the pin then lip out?

[Daryl David]

All lip, no pin.

[JESII]

100% sure?

[Daryl David]

Power lip, didn’t touch pin. If it had nipped the pin, pretty sure it would have dropped.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Wild ass prediction.  If all the majority of pros are doing by the end of the year and speaking out like Adam Scott about its effectiveness, the governing bodies will change the rule back.  Quote from Pagel: “If there was some kind of conclusive evidence that showed a significant advantage,” Pagel said, “I think we would have to go back and reevaluate it.”

Yeah, what's ridiculous was that I and several others were telling them to do the testing BEFORE hand, instead of saying "there's no advantage or disadvantage" like they continued to say, when everyone knew that there had been plenty of things that showed an advantage.

Also found it funny that McCord stated emphatically yesterday that the only testing on the issue was done 30 years ago by Pelz.  Does the guy live under a rock?

I tweeted about the same thing. Apparently he does. It doesn't even take much Googling to find recent tests.

https://twitter.com/iacas/status/1089305147929436160

Adam's point, btw, is that it helps him AIM the shorter ones. He feels more confident with a bit of a back-board. And it may encourage players to play a bit more break as a ball hitting the stick from the high side makes more sense than a ball breaking away from the stick, across the low side of the hole.

[ChipRoyce]

After reading Mygolfspy's research, I played my first round with leaving the flag in.
I buy into the idea that it is to my benefit, but putted poorly today, not feeling comfortable with the 'look' of the pin in. Yes, I can see the hole better. However, I like to have my puts die near the hole and for some reason the look for where I am and try to have the ball roll in seemed different.
I expect to get used to this quickly.

[Steve Lang]

   Dieing the ball into the hole to "make it wider,"ala Crenshaw style  is now superseded by playing with the pin, and then some.  From long distance I certainly like the aid of pin in... and no one needed to tend it.


Sir Nick was confused by some report's words but grasped that it was now an advantage.  HE used to like to hit it firm to take the break out of putts if i remember correctly.


Daryl D,  I think McCord was referring to Pelz 30 years ago defining that a ball hit effectively hit to get 18" past the hole was going to go in if it was aimed properly... that now appears to be superseded as well...

[Sean_A]

I left the flag in a lot more today...just because of convenience...especially as a 2ball.  I did notice with the wind the pin wasn't always straight down the cup...it looks weird and is off putting.  Is it legal to tend the pin and not pull it?

Ciao

[SL_Solow]

Not legal to tend pin and not pull it

[John Kavanaugh]

Played in a four day stroke play tournament this week and pin in/pin out is just more mundane chatter I could do without.

[Sean_A]

Not legal to tend pin and not pull it

I didn't think so....thanks.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

   Dieing the ball into the hole to "make it wider,"ala Crenshaw style  is now superseded by playing with the pin, and then some.  From long distance I certainly like the aid of pin in... and no one needed to tend it.

Leaving the pin in may change these numbers a bit, but here is some great research on "putting capture speed" . . . which clearly shows that the further past the hole your putt would have gone, the less margin for error you have to sink it.


https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/46450-putting-capture-speed/

Dying the ball into the hole is still the way to go.  Just don't leave it short.

[Steve Lang]

   TD Thanks,  Eric B shared that info and links early in the thread


Yep, 99.9999999999999% of putts that don't get to the hole end up short, so its just food for thought that 1-2-3 rolls beyond would be ok.  Simply line and speed for ball to go in., I'm more of a Stockton than a Pelz guy, but the go out and play factor is primary, as its year round down here, on Bermuda, growing -dormant, downgrain, crossgrain, againstgrain... so use all the practice green


I'm a big fan of physics, chemistry, & math, which is why I'm a Chem & Env. Eng., so I appreciate all the theory but also the non-ideal and typical log-normal distribution of things in nature and golf in particular. 


Yesterday and today the pin was in a lot more than out, probably 10x more... fine by us

[A.G._Crockett]

Prediction:

This rule will be changed to be the same as the two-stroke penalty drop for a lost or OB ball when no provisional ball was played.  It will be an option for casual play, not an option for tournament play.


And I wouldn't be surprised if it happened quickly, as more and more Tour players, for whom speed of play is meaningless but making putts and winning money is NOT, opt to leave the pin in.  Add to that that all current and future studies will show exactly what all past studies have shown; there will just be more of them.


Even the USGA will eventually figure out that the stick provides at least a marginal advantage, and that more than speeding up play is going on.  Even an organization of guys who love to ignore data AND common sense will be unable to ignore this.

[John Kavanaugh]

Wait till the Memorial and Nicklaus uses pins where the last foot is made of flubber.

[Joe Leenheer]

Wait till the Memorial and Nicklaus uses pins where the last foot is made of flubber.

 


Love watching the pros leave it in from long distance and for little tap ins.  Still tough to see on moderate-length and short putts.


Haven't played serious golf with this option yet, but the more and more I think about it....the more and more I think I'll leave it in.


#TeamLeaveItIn 

[Doug Siebert]

Leaving the pin in may change these numbers a bit, but here is some great research on "putting capture speed" . . . which clearly shows that the further past the hole your putt would have gone, the less margin for error you have to sink it.


https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/46450-putting-capture-speed/

Dying the ball into the hole is still the way to go.  Just don't leave it short.

That is an amazing article there, but they need to redo it in the light of leaving in the pin. The 0.065 seconds for the ball to drop more than halfway down the hole still applies, but the calculation becomes FAR more complex since that time will include some drop as the ball enters the hole, then a collision with the pin, and some further drop post-collision.

A thicker pin means the collision happens sooner, a thinner pin means there is more total time for the ball to drop. A pin that has a slight lean due to wind, not being properly seated or an improperly cut hole means the collision happens sooner or later depending on the direction of the lean relative to the direction the ball entered the hole. A pin made of a material that results in it absorbing more of the energy of the ball means the ball is moving more slowly post-collision. A collision at an angle means the ball will keep more of its energy when compared to a straight on collision. There are a ton of factors that influence the article's currently rather simple conclusion.

I wouldn't be surprised if the ball manufacturers will soon try to take advantage of this rule change. A new ball with a very thin very soft outer cover to absorb some of the collision energy and increase the chance a putt stays in the hole. Since the collisions are taking place at such slow speeds relative to even a chip, let alone a full shot, it shouldn't affect the distance the ball travels. Well other than a putt hit softly would need a bit more oomph, and of course it would be like going back to balata balls as far as durability goes. I'm sure Titleist wouldn't mind that, though! 

Perhaps I was imagining things, but I always felt that a balata ball went in on a chip that hits the pin more frequently than surlyn balls due to the balata being so much softer and absorbing some of the energy of collision. Even if it wasn't true I believed it was true...mind over matter and all that.

[Lou_Duran]

Even the USGA will eventually figure out that the stick provides at least a marginal advantage, and that more than speeding up play is going on.  Even an organization of guys who love to ignore data AND common sense will be unable to ignore this.

Wow, talk about being lost deep in the woods! 


If the flagstick rule is changed it will be because the "data" suggests that the benefits (speed of play, mainly) did not outweigh the costs (a clear advantage- putts going in that would otherwise run past the hole).  Mind you that developing convincing numbers will require studies with extremely large number of trials to evaluate many variables (15+ come to mind quickly).  Personally, I doubt that a study will conclusively answer the question, especially if a significant advantage standard is required to once again modify the rule (for a decade or so prior to the late '60s, the 2019 flagstick rule was in effect).


Anecdotally, in the 13 rounds I've played this year, mostly with the flagstick left in, I've had one putt affected, hitting the right-center of the stick at moderate speed and glancing off the lip, around the hole and out the back.  Had the stick not been there, we all had 0 doubt that it would have gone in.  I don't remember anyone else's putts being helped or hurt by the flagstick during those rounds.


One upside of the new rule is that the flastick doesn't get tossed around the green or otherwise mishandled as much.  We have a couple guys who like to have it tended from 20' in, and we typically just hold the stick while they putt and then put it back in.


A downside is the potential damage to the cup in trying to take the ball out of the hole with the flagstick still in.  Guys who wear a glove or have large hands seem to have the most trouble.